Just some brainstorm ideas for healing

[Gemina]

I don't have the innovative mind to come up with a whole job rework. It's also difficult to place my attention into something like that for the time it takes to really come up with something creative, so I thought I'd just toss some ideas out there and see if any sound good.

The first is I wonder why it is being left to other roles other than healers to use abilities like stuns, virus, feint, and silence. Were over smashing one to two buttons, I think it would be fair to let healers handle this.

Next came to me while crafting which is what i spend most of my time doing, and trying to find a happy medium between our two factions of healers. It was all the procs, and I started thinking how interesting a DPS could be if there wasn't a set combo string, but rather a system of procs based on other actions (I don't play all the dps jobs so not sure if any already use a system like this). That would basically eliminate any and all scripted openers for jobs, so then I started thinking why not for healers instead?

We would need another offensive skill or two, but I actually think SE needs to give a little here. The one button smash can't remain. It just can't.

I still want a good healing requirement, but I think getting skills to interact with each other would go a long way to improving healing encounters. There also has to be a way to accommodate ilv bloat, so healers also have more to do once the healing requirement drops to negligible levels.

Thoughts?

[GrimGale]

I guess we could start by trying to figure out what we don't want in a healing job. (Though that kind of thinking might supress any type of innovation or interesting design in favour of a rather flavourless concensus.)

We don't want a repetitive one button filler rotation during healing downtime.
>We could get some healing benefit out of casting damage spells.

We don't want copy-pasted homogenized tools for each healer.
>We could get defined sub roles for each healer to balance their dps contribution to the party i. e. WHM as a Nuker, SCH as a debuffer and AST as a buffer. (If a basic set of homogenized tools is required for balance, then lets have the uniqueness come from the gameplay"filler" aspect of the jobs during healing downtime.)

[Risvertasashi]

The first is I wonder why it is being left to other roles other than healers to use abilities like stuns, virus, feint, and silence. Were over smashing one to two buttons, I think it would be fair to let healers handle this.

The biggest downside to this is healers are already very high responsibility. Mistime one heal and the tank dies, or the raid dies, etc. If you do this, you're adding yet more responsibility to the role - one more thing healers have to learn, and in high end content, not mess up lest the party wipe. One more thing to juggle, which might be particularly hard on ASTs since they've got cards already.

That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done, though. One advantage would be being able to plan heals around the mitigation more directly, not having to worry about someone else missing it.

But... just be careful with this one... this is definitely a two edged sword kind of thing.

Next came to me while crafting which is what i spend most of my time doing, and trying to find a happy medium between our two factions of healers. It was all the procs, and I started thinking how interesting a DPS could be if there wasn't a set combo string, but rather a system of procs based on other actions (I don't play all the dps jobs so not sure if any already use a system like this).

Physical ranged jobs are like this. They have some traditional rotation elements, but a lot of it is watching for procs and priority based.

My biggest concern with a rotation like this is it would lead to slashing healing abilities. So healing would be even more simplified. I don't want that.

Adding just, for example, a second dot back should be fine though.

--

As I think on this a bit more... well, I'm going to be bluntly honest: A lot of healers out there I've seen tunnelvision and kind of suck at multitasking, even just at watching health bars while DPSing. The level of attention that a proc-based rotation requires... well, I think it would make it a lot worse.

I still want a good healing requirement, but I think getting skills to interact with each other would go a long way to improving healing encounters. There also has to be a way to accommodate ilv bloat, so healers also have more to do once the healing requirement drops to negligible levels.

Here's where I agree the most. When I'm playing a healer, I want to, you know, actually heal more.

It's a difficult problem to address not just because of stuff like ilvl bloat, but because of the way battle encounters are designed on a fundamental level.

Sadly I don't have a magic bullet solution. Simply nerfing heal potencies won't do it either - SE seems to have dabbled in that slightly with ShB and well, yeah. It's really hard to think of a way to do this without suggesting a total overhaul of battles, which of course won't happen...

[Duelle]

That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done, though. One advantage would be being able to plan heals around the mitigation more directly, not having to worry about someone else missing it.

If the goal is to add something to the healer's responsibilities, I'd go the way of debuff removal on party members (which doesn't happen enough and is almost never crucial to clearing a fight) and dispelling enemy buffs (which doesn't exist in this game for anyone that's not BLU). Interrupting/Stunning and the like should be absolute last resort for healers, because there should be other roles covering that in a group.

As I think on this a bit more... well, I'm going to be bluntly honest: A lot of healers out there I've seen tunnelvision and kind of suck at multitasking, even just at watching health bars while DPSing. The level of attention that a proc-based rotation requires... well, I think it would make it a lot worse.

Procs I think should be tied to the healer role rather than being damage-oriented as the OP suggests. The problem is that a good number of the possible procs are already in use (Cure's proc that removes Cure II's MP cost, Benefic's procs that ensure Benefic II will crit). One I have not seen is "upon crit, get back x% of MP spent".

Here's where I agree the most. When I'm playing a healer, I want to, you know, actually heal more.

It's a difficult problem to address not just because of stuff like ilvl bloat, but because of the way battle encounters are designed on a fundamental level.

Sadly I don't have a magic bullet solution. Simply nerfing heal potencies won't do it either - SE seems to have dabbled in that slightly with ShB and well, yeah. It's really hard to think of a way to do this without suggesting a total overhaul of battles, which of course won't happen...

It'd take a couple of things. Increase damage taken by everyone or nerf healing slightly, possibly nerf MP regen, limit sources of in-combat rez (this is tied to the MP changes; healers can't blow a big chunk of their MP on rezzing if they can't hardcast rez in combat *taps head*), add aforementioned duties like cleansing and dispelling, and redesign dungeon mobs so that you can teach leveling players how to play within this new paradigm we're introducing.

The one word of caution in all of this is that if the goal is to make healing more challenging, there's always the risk of pushing things too far and scaring away the laymen that level healers for the storyline or who dabble but don't main a healer (like me).

[Side-Eye]

(Cure's proc that removes Cure II's MP cost, Benefic's procs that ensure Benefic II will crit).

'Benefic I' is virtually worthless beyond low level dungeons, so the trait that gives it a chance to boost Benefic II is kinda wasted.

I wouldn't be mad if there was more inter-mingling of DPS and heals, e.g. every cast of your primary heal had a chance to convert your primary DPS spell into an enhanced version for its next cast.

[Saefinn]

With regards to the first. I think if anything they could embrace more types of status effects, they don't have to be healer exclusive either, but they could be given to a healer. It seems with each expansion they shy further away from applying status effects, but it's an element that can add a dimension of enjoyment. And it'd be something healers can do as part of their support role. Or heck, it could be 1 healer's gimmick, AST gets to buff, SCH could enfeeble (which would make sense for them to).

With regards to procs, I play DNC, which is proc heavy. So I'd say, "why not?" That said, my openers are still scripted, but then it's not wholly proc-based. I wouldn't necessarily say give it to everybody, but I think it's one of those approaches that could make one job feel unique versus the next. White Mage is essentially the counterpart to Black Mage, Black Mage has a proc system already available (most heavy in the level 50 rotation). But I feel White Mage should /feel/ powerful. So in a way, hitting stronger procs as part of its own rotation I guess could be interesting. Though not as a WHM player, not really for me to say how it'd worked as an improvement on the current DPS rotation, but level 50 was where I started to enjoy BLM, so a similar rotation for WHM with procs would be fine for me at least.

But either way, with whatever brainstorming people can put together, ultimately you are right, there's more offensive skills needed. Just something to plug in the gap to avoid long periods of feeling like you're not doing much. I know "bloat" can sometimes be concern, but I think there's still more room for DPS skills than we currently have. Though IMO there is bloat in our healing side.

However, for what we get, I'm actually pretty flexible in what I want, because ultimately, I want it to be fun and engaging and for each healer to provide a unique experience and there are many ways of achieving that.

[Gemina]

The biggest downside to this is healers are already very high responsibility. Mistime one heal and the tank dies, or the raid dies, etc. If you do this, you're adding yet more responsibility to the role - one more thing healers have to learn, and in high end content, not mess up lest the party wipe. One more thing to juggle, which might be particularly hard on ASTs since they've got cards already.

That doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't be done, though. One advantage would be being able to plan heals around the mitigation more directly, not having to worry about someone else missing it.

But... just be careful with this one... this is definitely a two edged sword kind of thing...

I think everyone has a large responsibility. However, our roles in the holy trinity is defined by those responsibilities, and a triangle cannot be formed without three sides. I think in order to address healing properly, we also have to look at what the other roles are doing and how they are contributing. Where is the overlap, and are secondary responsibilities being assigned properly?

What I know is that I play all three roles and out of all the jobs I play, no kit is as underutilized in both solo and party play as my healers. Solo I can accept because the nature of my role requires others to be with me to take advantage of my powerful heals, but if I am only using the skills in party play as I do when I solo, it's a big problem for me.

As I think on this a bit more... well, I'm going to be bluntly honest: A lot of healers out there I've seen tunnelvision and kind of suck at multitasking, even just at watching health bars while DPSing. The level of attention that a proc-based rotation requires... well, I think it would make it a lot worse.

This issue isn't a result of an ineptness to multitask. Tunnelvision happens because the healer is not engaged, and the healer isn't engaged because they are bored out of their minds smashing one button to contribute DPS. Now if a healer doesn't heal a party member because they are dealing with multiple situations all at once, that's a little different. If the healing requirement is raised, so will the attention level of our healers. If we show the same lack of faith in the general healing community, I see no reason for the devs to change their thought process either. We need to escape that.

I also think that too intricate of a DPS skillset can cause a healer to become too engaged in the DPS and tunnelvision this way as well. That's why I was thinking more about a proc system than actual combo strings, and using it as means to get healing and offensive skills to interact with each other.

Here's where I agree the most. When I'm playing a healer, I want to, you know, actually heal more.

It's a difficult problem to address not just because of stuff like ilvl bloat, but because of the way battle encounters are designed on a fundamental level.

Sadly I don't have a magic bullet solution. Simply nerfing heal potencies won't do it either - SE seems to have dabbled in that slightly with ShB and well, yeah. It's really hard to think of a way to do this without suggesting a total overhaul of battles, which of course won't happen...

Ultimately it's about making and keeping content engaging for healers. I think if it was an easy fix, we wouldn't be here talking about it. But again, this is more about brainstorming ideas, and I totally get if something like giving interruptions to healers is a no-go.

[Crushnight]

I have a hard time thinking up ideas that wouldn't immediately force players to use things a specific way.

Ideas i've had
-lillies give temp buff that next dmg spell cast is 1.4x potency whenever you consume one, would immediately force whm to use them on cd rather than for movement.
-give sch some Dot gameplay back, immediately forces schs to have to upkeep multiple Dots
-make sch capstone abilities synergies like Dissipation no longer removes fairy but doubles gauge fills whenever you use an aetherflow stack, which then allows to tether early with an additional effect for every 10 gauge used while tethered increase seraph summon time by 2s. But all this would just force uses on cd as they would allow more dps as you have less likely need to hard cast heals.

None are these are game breaking or anything, sch still be a powerhouse hlr with or without these just brain dead, whm would have a small increase in pDPS but still be too low compared to Ast rDPS and any changes I can think for Ast is just going to annoy those that like it currently and i'very given plenty over all the threads.

[Duelle]

'Benefic I' is virtually worthless beyond low level dungeons, so the trait that gives it a chance to boost Benefic II is kinda wasted.

That I see as a sign that heal scaling is in need of help. Either that or remove the trait and add another that makes Benefic I appealing to use at higher levels.

I wouldn't be mad if there was more inter-mingling of DPS and heals, e.g. every cast of your primary heal had a chance to convert your primary DPS spell into an enhanced version for its next cast.

On the one hand, that sounds like something you could build a new job around. On the other, I can't shake the thought of "Green DPS with non-shit heals".

[Risvertasashi]

I think everyone has a large responsibility. However, our roles in the holy trinity is defined by those responsibilities, and a triangle cannot be formed without three sides. I think in order to address healing properly, we also have to look at what the other roles are doing and how they are contributing. Where is the overlap, and are secondary responsibilities being assigned properly?

What I know is that I play all three roles and out of all the jobs I play, no kit is as underutilized in both solo and party play as my healers. Solo I can accept because the nature of my role requires others to be with me to take advantage of my powerful heals, but if I am only using the skills in party play as I do when I solo, it's a big problem for me.

So here's the problem.

Adding something reprisal/addle-like to the healers' kit doesn't fix the problem.

It's a button that will get pushed in high end content (and probably ignored by most healers in low end content), but the healing kit will still be exactly as underutilized as before.

I do agree with you - I want the healing parts specifically to be more engaging. But this does not do that.

Procs I think should be tied to the healer role rather than being damage-oriented as the OP suggests. The problem is that a good number of the possible procs are already in use (Cure's proc that removes Cure II's MP cost, Benefic's procs that ensure Benefic II will crit). One I have not seen is "upon crit, get back x% of MP spent".
It'd take a couple of things. Increase damage taken by everyone or nerf healing slightly, possibly nerf MP regen, limit sources of in-combat rez (this is tied to the MP changes; healers can't blow a big chunk of their MP on rezzing if they can't hardcast rez in combat *taps head*), add aforementioned duties like cleansing and dispelling, and redesign dungeon mobs so that you can teach leveling players how to play within this new paradigm we're introducing.

So on the first part about MP refunds and the like - SCH already has this, except it's a cooldown instead of a proc. And that's the way it should probably be. RNG + highly scripted burst damage in fights don't work very well. You need to be able to reliably plan what to use at a given mechanic for a fight.

The only reason it sort of works for AST is because DPS buffing is entirely optional, even if highly sought after, and even then people still complain a lot. It's also why the old AST's bole was considered mostly useless even after SE buffed it to be on par with tank CDs. You could never rely on having it.

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Now let's talk about limiting resources. Yes, this would be one way to do it. Even better, it's proven to work in other games. But mostly older MMOs.

Now here's the problem. You move away from the ABC (always be casting) model, people will kick and scream like nothing this forum has seen yet. People won't accept it. SE knows this, and will never do it.

And quite a few of the changes over the FF14's years have been to make ABC more of a thing, not less of a thing.

The one word of caution in all of this is that if the goal is to make healing more challenging, there's always the risk of pushing things too far and scaring away the laymen that level healers for the storyline or who dabble but don't main a healer (like me).

This is something that often doesn't get talked about on the forums, but I suspect it is a big factor.

Especially when I play non-healing roles, I see it a lot. Healers that fold under even low to moderate amounts of pressure. Healers that cannot heal while doing any kind of movements or mechanics. Healers that stop paying attention to the party frame while DPSing. And so on.