Tanking feels unimportant

[DRKoftheAzure]

Yes, yes it was absolutely worth it.

We didn't only get a level 1 trait, by the way. We also got a lot more depth to our moment-to-moment gameplay with all the extra space provided by not having to do enmity combos anymore. Gunbreaker has been a blast, and I know you mentioned DRK, but I've found DRK to have a good few things to manage these days, between MP, blood, keeping your buffs cycled, etc etc. We're basically as complex as any given DPS job now, which you definitely couldn't say before.

Ah sarcasm, how thou art poorly translated through text...


But seriously, just watch; next expansion they make GNB and PLD just as bad to play as DRK and tanking gets killed at media tour event, and you will say that tanking is even more interesting on the forums with sarcasm and devs take it seriously, to where they basically make the game be played for you and which makes it so you are basically watching a poorly animated movie...

[SargentToughie]

Ah sarcasm, how thou art poorly translated through text...


But seriously, just watch; next expansion they make GNB and PLD just as bad to play as DRK and tanking gets killed at media tour event, and you will say that tanking is even more interesting on the forums with sarcasm and devs take it seriously, to where they basically make the game be played for you and which makes it so you are basically watching a poorly animated movie...

Excuse me?

By all means, go into further detail about the issues you have with DRK, because from where I'm standing as an outsider looking in, I see an active job with a lot of resources to keep track of, a fairly demanding APM with all the OGCDs, and one of the strongest defensive tools in the history of the game. But if you want to go back one expansion to just mashing Dark Arts until the cows come home, by all means be my guest.

And, for real, why is everybody so obsessed with the enmity combos? You spent all of about 10 seconds in tank stance before stripping it for the entire rest of the encounter, and going through the most basic, boring-ass DPS rotation of all time, all of which have only gotten more complex with ShB. Doing an enmity combo as a PLD or DRK meant less mana, WAR less meter, you were literally just delaying the parts of your job that were actually fun.

Please refer to my previous post when it comes to my current opinion on tanking, it's the most cohesive it's ever been, by a country mile.

But I guess you'll think that's just sarcasm too, I suppose. God forbid somebody actually enjoy having a skill curve that makes sense.

[ReiMakoto]

Excuse me?

By all means, go into further detail about the issues you have with DRK, because from where I'm standing as an outsider looking in, I see an active job with a lot of resources to keep track of, a fairly demanding APM with all the OGCDs, and one of the strongest defensive tools in the history of the game. But if you want to go back one expansion to just mashing Dark Arts until the cows come home, by all means be my guest.

And, for real, why is everybody so obsessed with the enmity combos? You spent all of about 10 seconds in tank stance before stripping it for the entire rest of the encounter, and going through the most basic, boring-ass DPS rotation of all time, all of which have only gotten more complex with ShB. Doing an enmity combo as a PLD or DRK meant less mana, WAR less meter, you were literally just delaying the parts of your job that were actually fun.

Please refer to my previous post when it comes to my current opinion on tanking, it's the most cohesive it's ever been, by a country mile.

But I guess you'll think that's just sarcasm too, I suppose. God forbid somebody actually enjoy having a skill curve that makes sense.

Okay so like I think that the removal of emnity combos is a good thing, but saying drk is more complex now that back in SB is absolutely untrue. The skill ceiling of SB drk was really high, trying to stack your blood gauge to get maximal burst under trick windows, and the vastly higher APM (especially with high sks builds which has mnk level gcd with blood weapon) as well as creative add pickups with dark passenger for the dps gain really pushed SB drk ahead if you knew what they were doing. Yes you pressed a lot of dark arts, and in some phases you spammed it, but knowing how to best maximise your output under various raid buffs is if anything just as complex as current drks press button on cooldown and try not to overcap.

[SargentToughie]

Okay so like I think that the removal of emnity combos is a good thing, but saying drk is more complex now that back in SB is absolutely untrue. The skill ceiling of SB drk was really high, trying to stack your blood gauge to get maximal burst under trick windows, and the vastly higher APM (especially with high sks builds which has mnk level gcd with blood weapon) as well as creative add pickups with dark passenger for the dps gain really pushed SB drk ahead if you knew what they were doing. Yes you pressed a lot of dark arts, and in some phases you spammed it, but knowing how to best maximise your output under various raid buffs is if anything just as complex as current drks press button on cooldown and try not to overcap.

I never said that ShB DRK was more complex, I just said that it looks like a pretty fun job with enough stuff to manage to make it compelling. In terms of an actual playstyle, though, it is a bit more straightforward now.

EDIT: Though, thinking about it, the current DRK still has most of those same gameplay beats. You want to stack up blood/MP prior to raid buffs, you can use the AoE ability to scoop adds, same as you could with Dark Passenger, and you want to try and wring as many worthwhile uses out of The Blackest Night as possible, without losing DPS. The only thing that's changed is that you're not jamming Dark Arts every other GCD anymore. All the things you used to do before in order to squeeze out more damage, you still can do now.

[shao32]

DRK is not complex, it's casual leves of gameplay. there is no management since you use bloodspiller on sight and only care about blood when living Shadow is gonna be ready, the MP management is none since the incredible slow rate of MP generation fill your bar every 60seconds so line up with raid buffs so it's the same as PLD with the difference you don't overcap and that's solved with the natural uses of TBN.

DRK is not even faster or busy anymore, you trow everything on bloodweapon and spend 50s of mindless souleater spam with the occasional inner delirium window - salted earth, DRK gameplay is nothing what the new mains claim to be outside of the op TBN.

[Danelo]

Not to beat a dead horse but current DRK is a fun-killing one-trick pony comparatively to SB. That’s goes double from SB to HW but I digress since that’s covered in a bunch of threads.

[OdinelStarrei]

I never said that ShB DRK was more complex, I just said that it looks like a pretty fun job with enough stuff to manage to make it compelling. In terms of an actual playstyle, though, it is a bit more straightforward now.

EDIT: Though, thinking about it, the current DRK still has most of those same gameplay beats. You want to stack up blood/MP prior to raid buffs, you can use the AoE ability to scoop adds, same as you could with Dark Passenger, and you want to try and wring as many worthwhile uses out of The Blackest Night as possible, without losing DPS. The only thing that's changed is that you're not jamming Dark Arts every other GCD anymore. All the things you used to do before in order to squeeze out more damage, you still can do now.

Not necessarily incorrect, EoS is pretty much a Dark Arts replacement. The issue I have with it is that because the MP regeneration is so slow, and EoS is so expensive, I'm forced into 4 MP spenders per minute. This is a problem, because previous Delirium/BW gave you way more than your maximum amount of mana over the course of that minute, so you had to press Dark Arts more, not for damage, but to prevent overcapping. During bursts, only then would Dark Arts be used every GCD.

When it comes to DP and FoS line AoEs, I think there is a fundamental difference in how those skills are designed. Flood of Shadow is an Edge of Shadow replacement at 2+ enemies, and a mana dump. DP in SB was a 4800 MP nuke at 2+ targets that particularly was used in combination with DA+Plunge back when it also had enmity generation modifiers to grab adds in a single target encounter and double up on add+boss, or generate insane snap aggro if Power Slash could not be used in time/don't wanna lose the damage/mp gain. It also worked well as a way to prevent overcapping MP at a small DPS loss if Delirium was coming up soon and just Dark Arts alone wouldn't drain enough MP to compensate for the MP steroid. DP's existence did not negate Dark Arts in single target, like how Edge negates Flood in single target. DP was a situational skill that could be used single target if circumstances demanded it.

TBN back then, for all intents and purposes, was DPS neutral after the potency increases to Bloodspiller. Right now, defensively, TBN operates the same, but offensively, it could not be more different. Let me get this out of the way, TBN back then, and right now, is primarily used to free healer GCDs. The amount of potency you gave a healer trading one heal for one damage spell was more than the "gain" you got using a Bloodspiller in SB. Same principle in ShB, just without the Bloodspiller. Both versions are essentially RDPS gains. However, TBN giving you 50 Blood was actually used for GCD manipulation. By off-setting your fixed GCDs in a phase, you could plan your TBN breaks to fill out your "rotation" with more bloodspillers. Let's take Omega 11 Savage for example. Usually, with no TBN breaks, you would end Phase 1 on a Syphon Strike. That's not what you want, you lose blood and you lose damage for not completing the combo. That means SOMEWHERE in phase 1, you need to break TBN two times, and use two Bloodspillers, one for the Syphon Strike, and one for the Hard Slash. This pushes your GCD timeline backwards twice, and you now end the phase on the previous Soul Eater.

TBN offensively in ShB is now used to essentially exceed your maximum mana or "store" a edge for later. In opener, and with mana planning, it lets you get out an additional Edge of Shadow during burst, and is mandatory for making first GCD Blood Weapon not overcap your mana, which you have to use to get Living Shadow up after the first soul eater. TBN's increased power also makes it an even better defensive pivoting tool, and frequent usages of it (at the cost of your burst window oGCDs) can grant multiple healer GCDs. (See: Phase 1 Titan Pulses/Voices) Although I will admit, if you are pushing for personal DPS, throwing out five Edges under raid buffs is the more compelling option, more so if you're running with flat damage buffs like Trick and Divination.

I am doing similar things on DRK in 5.0, but only inside of Delirium, and if literally my entire kit and mana needs to be dumped. I had to actively manage my MP before because the regeneration was so fast in SB, increased APM, reduced CDs, multiple MP regen sources, etc etc. Now it feels like I've been given an "allowance" of MP, and it takes a long time to come back once I've used all of it. Delirium windows that have all of my CDs in them do require a fair amount of double weaving, but outside of that period is where active thinking or involvement in the job kit crashes through the floor. Everything is on a 60 sec timer, so once BW is back up, I know it's time for CnS, AD, Double Plunge, Living Shadow every odd usage. There are a lot of oGCDs, but they all do the same thing with 1 modifier that doesn't impact the placement or usage of them in a majority of scenarios. Don't even get me started on Salted Earth.


This is without bringing up how Darkside is not a buff that demands attention or interacts with your kit in any way outside of a flat damage boost. It's a like a participation trophy for pressing the edge button once a minute after your opener, instead of something you have to plan a weapon combo for like Storm's Eye. I think Darkside upkeep should be the "filler" content your brain is concerned with during the 50 seconds where there is nothing else happening, like how MP/Blood was in SB, because right now, it's kinda just there. But this has been talked to death, I just wanted to clarify these two points in particular.

As it relates to the actual thread, I don't think tanking feels unimportant per say. I just think it feels a little shallow at the moment outside of bleeding edge progression. Similar to how healers feel, but not nearly as severe or pronounced.
Lack of a high skill ceiling?

Hopefully this offers a bit of insight.

[RinaB]

As a recently retired DRK main I personally feel the changes to DRK were fine. were they perfect? no, but the class at least feels smooth when understood and played correctly. imo from what I see a lot of is people miss how hectic and busy the job was in SB but being busy and producing results are very different things. I feel like the SB DRK was a whole lot of buttons and management for very little results compared to other tanks and that's what the devs saw too. just my opinion don't get rabid on me here. dark arts spam was horrible but the changes now reflect tanks in general being thrown into the easy mode bin with a label that reads "free queues for everyone".

now that I've switched to healing, it's far more engaging and difficult (still need a lot more experience) and the general feel of the role is far more important then tanking. I'm not trying to directly compare the roles but if you're a garbage healer, the impact on yourself and your group far far far outweighs being a garbage tank since most healers will just pop CD's and heal through the stupid. this is why I mentioned more tank specific mechanics outside of mitigation. if you dumb down a role there needs to be a counterbalance.

[Gaarx]

I don't know if this has been talked about to death but the feel of the tank role in ff14 just feels very unimportant and I'm gonna rant. I haven't played this game as long as a lot of people but I was tanking well before ShB and you felt appreciated and were often thanked for playing the role and you wanted to perform perfectly (at least I did).

I'm not going to sit here and say I agree with all the class changes because I don't and I'm confused by overlooked issues but my biggest issue is with enmity. All the easy aoes the tanks have gotten and simplified rotations coupled with insane enmity generation just ruined the role imo. everyone and their dog is running around as a tank especially GNB and it's not nearly as common to get any player commendations even when you played perfectly because...who cares. I started leveling a healer for a bit of fun and the horrendous tanks are in no short supply but I feel like these tank changes just trivialized the role and promote bad gameplay.

pugging with other tanks? there used to be conversations about who was going to MT and OT etc and now you best just turn off your threat generator and let the GNB rush in even if they have no idea what they're doing. I'm ranting but it's sad to me for those out there who have dedicated themselves to the tank role for a long time get pushed into obscurity by the devs allowing any idiot to tank.

What's a gnb?

[testname]

What's a gnb?

Gunbreaker ^_^