Can we please put Coils of Bahamut in normal raid roulette?

[Nockvryca]

You are expecting alot from completely random df, some of these people are full level 80 in like ilvl 450 and still doing damage as if we are in HW.

[Hasrat]

While I don't have the experience to argue, I would still remain skeptical, due to how much you seem to gloss over important mechanics. "T5, literally a burn from 100% to divebombs..." Ok, and how often will you see uncoordinated groups get wrecked by divebombs? Personally, in my synced experience, it wasn't even the divebombs that were the major problem (though it was a struggle), it was the Twister phase.
"T8... just need to do missiles correctly," as if that can be expected from every pug.

Especially strange how much you gloss over T11. You can bet that nearly every group is going to have some significant insta-death by standing in the center when the barrier pops. And even in my unsynced experience, I've seen it ridiculously difficult for groups to understand/follow the idea of keeping adds apart while moving.

Idk, you say you've got experience that I can't refute, but, I still think you're overestimating the skills/competency of the random groups for a lot of the more punishing mechanics.

[Noitems]

I think the player base overall has improved since then and can properly coordinate.

Imagine if you thought this and tried to go to heaven but god said; "Your coming was foretold, servant of Ivalice. Or perhaps you serve another. I am Count Cidolfus Orlandeau. Your journey ends here."

They added the echo to Orbonne and ONLY Orbonne because people can't coordinate. Mustadio is a unga bunga at heart, and so can Ultima for 70% of the fight. However Agrias and yer boy Sean Connery require actual teamwork. This is in my honest to goodness opinion is why we need more alliance raid bosses that actually make better use of all three alliances or incorporate all three into something more meaningful. Rabanastre was PERFECT for this back when it came out since three of the fights required all three alliances to handle an add/do a mech/flip a switch. Lighthouse cut it down to just 1 boss and a trash mob and Orbonne brought it back up to 2 and a trash mob. The Nier raid is getting there with two of the fights requiring the three alliances to work together, and slaps them on the wrist if they wipe. If people don't get this stuff beat into their head we wind up with situations like the current Orbonne where we need to get a buff to cure incompetency.

Long tangent I know but these are the types of people you're dealing with in a DF setting. We can give people a chance, but if all of coils was thrown into raid you would be regretting that decision very quickly as it would present itself on the majority of days as more and more people can run it due to the lower il.

[Havenchild]

It's a damn shame how many assumptions there are here. We didn't HAVE any discussion about the fights in my FC because people wanted to go blind in the content.

The fact of the matter is you DO NOT need some superior knowledge to execute these fights, not even superior damage. I am convinced none of you against this idea have actually went in there recently. You don't need any unsurmountable level of damage or execution to beat these fights as they have LARGELY been reduced to damn near striking dummies. You BARELY see mechanics and the ones you DO see are in no way overly difficult compared to current normal raids.

This is pure fear mongering at it's best. The fights don't require explanation as a whole to win. Only specific one hit mechanics that still exist do, at best.

The arguement that DF is bad, when the fact of the matter is, people go into DF currently with those same bads and wipe to things and down fights regardless makes the whole counterargument pointless.

Fear mongering, from people who actually only in essence, remember the context of coil back then in terms of difficulty, but have not actually tried it synced recently. I invite every single person in denial to actually TRY the coil content syncced and honestly compare them to the current Eden normal or 012N raids. I guarantee you anyone with an honest assessment of the content would say these current raids are on average more punishing.

Coil fights are faceroll now post all the buffs and nerfs. This is absolutely DF worthy.

[Nestama]

Assumptions are made because we've all experienced the one or more person who outright refuses to learn (and this one person alone can be responsible for a wipe). There's a reason why the Tales from Duty Finder thread has over 1000 pages (and most of the posts are from negative experiences). It sucks to say this, but most players in DF do not have raid awareness (example: Shinryu back when Stormblood came out) and most of them are looking for a quick and easy clear.

[Havenchild]

While I don't have the experience to argue, I would still remain skeptical, due to how much you seem to gloss over important mechanics. "T5, literally a burn from 100% to divebombs..." Ok, and how often will you see uncoordinated groups get wrecked by divebombs? Personally, in my synced experience, it wasn't even the divebombs that were the major problem (though it was a struggle), it was the Twister phase.
"T8... just need to do missiles correctly," as if that can be expected from every pug.

Especially strange how much you gloss over T11. You can bet that nearly every group is going to have some significant insta-death by standing in the center when the barrier pops. And even in my unsynced experience, I've seen it ridiculously difficult for groups to understand/follow the idea of keeping adds apart while moving.

Idk, you say you've got experience that I can't refute, but, I still think you're overestimating the skills/competency of the random groups for a lot of the more punishing mechanics.

T5 -> Twister, barely shows up tbh. You usually go from 100% -> divebombs almost always and by the time twin comes back, usually his HP is so low, the next chain pops and its literally done soon after. You may see twister if your DPS is THAT atrocious and even then it is not a one shot iirc. Hell if it was the ONLY mechanic you had to watch out for, that still PALES in comparison to everything else that is in current normal raids that you have to consistently do BACK TO BACK.

T8 -> Missiles, literally can assign ranged to handle, mines are a joke (almost everyone can pop 2 without a heal in between). If people can do towers in Sephirot Normal, they can do missiles. It's literally the same mechanic just colored differently.

T11-> Keep adds away from each other is hard? How do people do it then in Thordan, Crown of the Immaculate Normal, The Final Steps of Faith, Sophia Normal. People get one shoted by Cauterize from Midgardsomr, two shoted by M/F in O12N and one shotted by Titan Knockbacks or Leviathan floor destruction for bad positioning ALL the time.

The fact I'm trying to point out which is the major flaw of this counter argument is that EQUALLY PUNISHING mechanics or more consistently punishing mechanics exist in current normal raids ALREADY. No one in this entire thread has tried to refute that point and quite literally can not.

[HyoMinPark]

It's a damn shame how many assumptions there are here.

You’re also doing some heavy assuming yourself, sweetheart: that DF will be able to handle Coils. At least those of us who have so little faith have experience in Duty Finder where players struggle to even grasp the simplest of mechanics—like stack markers.

The fact I'm trying to point out which is the major flaw of this counter argument is that EQUALLY PUNISHING mechanics or more consistently punishing mechanics exist in current normal raids ALREADY. No one in this entire thread has tried to refute that point and quite literally can not.

And people tend to die to the mechanics as well. Again: stack markers.

T11-> Keep adds away from each other is hard?

I mean, I just got out of a run of Copied Factory where the tanks stacked the adds during Engles and we wiped. So yeah, it is pretty hard to separate the adds, apparently.

I do want to note that I find it interesting you’re proposing that Coil is easy now and that DF could do them... but then in the same breath you bring up how people die to easy mechanics in easier content. You’re kind of defeating your point with that statement.

It sucks to say this, but most players in DF do not have raid awareness (example: Shinryu back when Stormblood came out) and most of them are looking for a quick and easy clear.

People still die to the first Tidal Wave even in ShB (read: players that aren’t even new to the instance, either). So things haven’t changed all that much.

[Havenchild]

You’re also doing some heavy assuming yourself, sweetheart: that DF will be able to handle Coils. At least those of us who have so little faith have experience in Duty Finder where players struggle to even grasp the simplest of mechanics—like stack markers.



And people tend to die to the mechanics as well. Again: stack markers.



People still die to the first Tidal Wave even in ShB (read: players that aren’t even new to the instance, either). So things haven’t changed all that much.

You are 100% correct and further prove my point. I have DF'd all of the current fights. I have PF'd all fights. I can absolutely say the crop of players you'll run into on DF or PF are not so different in terms of skill variance. I've been to PF Duty Completes with absolute CRAP players and you have to disband and reform. Does that suddenly mean we should exclude current normal raids from PF? No that doesn't make sense. In DF, you could wipe in things like THE BURN and people disband. THEY would continue to do the same regardless if they want to.

DF can absolutely handle coils because the fights are NOT as punishing as when they were originally out. Echo, Nerfs and ilvl overgearing have brought these fights down to damn near face rolls. There's no need to SILENCE ADS. There is NO NEED to separate Caduceus. THERE IS NO NEED to execute every single mechanic perfectly, only particular ones AT BEST that require one person, usually to do.

The playerbase as a whole, with macros, with guide videos, with simplifying of classes has enough of a cushion that even with complete blindness to any of the fights, can easily define the wipe mechanic, and execute afterwards as a whole. We do it EVERY Normal raid implementation. Again, your opinion is pure fear-mongering. I invite you to go into DF on any of these fights with a random group maybe yourself being the only knowledgeable person in the room, which is fairly consistent with week one normal raids currently. You will absolutely down every single fight.

If your counter-argument then becomes "but a group of randoms who have never did the content would struggle, I invite you to look at DAY 1 clears of normal content on every single data center with wipe/one shot mechanics from CURRENT normal level content. This is not an excuse. The fact of the matter is, I am not over simplifying these fights. Protesters in this thread are over complicating.

[Fynlar]

Twisters in T5 are absolutely a one shot if you mess it up. You don't even see any damage done; you just get flung into the air and come back down as a corpse.

T5 in general was kind of awful. It's like... you touch the wall, you die. You touch the twister, you die. You touch the bird, you die. Too far to the right, you die. Too far to the left, you die. You die, you die, you die, you die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die, die...

Coil was a bit too heavy on the one-shot mechanics for my liking, but T5 was notoriously bad about it.

For T9 I'd consider it a godsend by itself if you could get a DF group to not form any invinci-golems.

[MariaArvana]

snip

It's ironic you're making as many assumptions as the rest of the people.

Your major fallacy is assuming that the average DF random will be anywhere near as skilled, willing to learn, or be open to communication as your FC mates are. As time immemorial has shown in Mentor Roulette extremes, 24 mans, and people lying & joining prog parties they haven't the foggiest idea on in the hopes of getting carried, there is a substantial amount of the playerbase that simply doesn't have the desire, drive or skill to be able to compete in coil, even with all its nerfs and would be an active hindrance or flat-out make several coil fights impossible to clear(depending on role & fight) if you got one in your party. That's not even getting into the part of the playerbase that still doesn't have the foggiest idea what a stack marker means and bungles it. Or that '3 per stack' & 'spread these meteors out' on Cid are hard concepts to grasp.

Lets not even get into dps players who manage to eek out dps that would have been acceptable an expansion ago, let alone this expansion.

As someone who's done them synced in 5.0, The hard ones are still miles above Eden Normal. A single good healer + tank combo can carry you super hard through pretty much any issue you encounter in Eden Normal (source: the first time I ever went through Eden Normal with my bf & a healer friend hard carrying for 20 minutes on our Levi run with 5/8 basically perma dead.), whereas a misplaced Golem, a badly placed divebomb(s), a badly charged tower, a bad tether movement, bad Bennu placement, and a bad Tempest wing tether pickup can instantly end your run in coils. Heck, there's a vid of a RDM + a healer duoing Titan for 40minutes out there to show just how un-punishing Eden Normal is, something completely impossible at synced level in the harder coil fights.

There is fearmongering, but much of it is based on the much, much, continuous, weekly evidence that showcases just how disastrous Coils would be when fights that are far easier than them (24mans, Raid normal modes, etc.) are spaghetti fests far more often than they should be. Even fights that are super simple on paper (Odin, as he basically boils down to dodge aoes for 9 minutes) Somehow have ended in vote abandon every time in the few times I've gotten it in Mentor Roulette, despite it not having a single complex mechanic in the entirety of its duration.

Honestly, the only thing I have to say is this: Orbonne Monastery, a 24 man with mechanics easier than half the mechanics you encounter in the harder coil fights, had to receive echo because the playerbase was that terrible at it to the point dodging getting it at all, or leaving the instant you loaded in became the less painful alternative to actually doing it half the time.