Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[Scintilla]

Yes we dont know exactly and it could be that they included animal life in that too but there are some things ingame and in the short story that gives us further hints:

- Emet’s words were in response to Alphinaud’s appeal to him to look to the present, rather than continuing to dwell on the past, explaining one of the reasons he wasn’t prepared to abandon his objectives. If it was thought that Hydaelyn’s ability to split the opponent would go no further than imprisoning Zodiark, it would make the sundering unintentional and the whole ‘lesser races would be untrustworthy’ argument wouldn’t have applied. If it was known that Hydaelyn’s ability to sunder would extend beyond Zodiark to the star and it’s inhabitants, it would make the sundering intentional, forcibly applying the effects upon everyone on the star whether they wanted it or not. Amaurot was only a single city. Is it possible that there could have been other survivors elsewhere on the star who may have had no knowledge of the ongoing conflict in Amaurot and, therefore, would have had this practically irreversible change thrust upon them with no choice?
Animals can act on their own. Human life isn't essential to the survival of all. And, as some here have already said, if given the option to sacrifice an entire Family of animals to restore the Human race, they would refuse it and leave the planet to the animals. So why would their talk of leaving their star to 'future life' necessarily discount non-human or common animal life?

- Isn’t aether the matter that primals require, with aether being described as the basis of all life? I’ll admit, I don’t know very much about it. Beast-tribes manage to summon primals (albeit incredibly weak ones in comparison to Hydaelyn/Zodiark which both used sacrifices of Ancients), not only through the use of crystals but also by their own sacrifices (shown in the Garuda and Titan (Hard) cutscenes). So for such beasts post-sundering to still be of some use to primals, the beasts which existed prior to the sundering may have held greater stores of the aether required.

- In truth, we can’t really say either way. I’d agree Zodiark would’ve expected a considerable quantity of aether, but whether they would’ve obtained this from further sacrifice of Ancients (seems illogical to me but it is a possibility) or whether they would’ve obtained it from immense sacrifices of other life on the star is still somewhat unknown.

- Plants not being the only possibility, but it would also depend how much is needed and how quickly it’s required. If such sacrifices did involve plants/animals it’s likely huge swathes of land would’ve destroyed. Perhaps some felt that such mass destruction of the planet (especially after the sacrifices just made to restore it) was a backwards step and that the star’s then thriving life belonged to the future generations to enjoy – not to Zodiark.

[Rannie]

Err Scintilla there is no perhaps for what you typed out last. That is the exact reason as why Hydaelyn was summoned. To stop anymore sacrifices to Zodiark and let the new life flourish. It is what also caused the division among the remaining Amaurotians.

Also they weren't planning on sacrificing anymore of the ancients they were straight up planning to sacrifice the new life after letting it flourish long enough so that there was exactly the amount of aether/power that Zodiark needed to give life back to the ones who willingly gave up their life to stop the calamity and bring life back to the devastated star.

Hythlodaeus goes into this explanation himself when your sitting on a bench waiting to get your papers in Amaurot.

Edit: Btw I was just thinking about this while trying to get some sleep. I highly doubt that it matters to the Ascians what they do or who or what gets killed/destroyed in the process of achieving their goals. Take them using Black Rose just to usher in the Eighth umbral calamity. That poison not only killed man and beasts it also destroyed Vegetation as well.

[Alleluia]

Rannie, I think the "perhaps" there applied to the idea that the tipping point for the decision to summon Hydaelyn was "You cannot sacrifice the trees!" if the environmental impact of sacrificing said trees (and other non-persons) was big enough. As opposed to the theory that the phase 3 sacrifice was going to include people.

It is most definitely not clear that Hydaelyn was summoned to safeguard the newly restored populations of plants and animals. I hope it wasn't just that. Splitting reality over a bunch of non-sentient plants that will just grow back anyway is silly. Either the 3rd phase sacrifice included sacrificing people, or my past self was a misanthropic idiot. IMO.

[Rannie]

Ahh then I miss understood then. I honestly dont think it was just about the plants and animals. Though they all contain Aether. If they didn't then Y'shtola is the luckiest blind kitty out there for not running into one of those giant trees in Rak tika.

Lol misanthropic idiot... sorry I laughed with that. And you're right if that is the case lol.

[Scintilla]

It is most definitely not clear that Hydaelyn was summoned to safeguard the newly restored populations of plants and animals. I hope it wasn't just that. Splitting reality over a bunch of non-sentient plants that will just grow back anyway is silly. Either the 3rd phase sacrifice included sacrificing people, or my past self was a misanthropic idiot. IMO.

I'd agree it would've been a big overreaction if that were the case. Hythlodaeus was so vague it could've meant almost anything! Whilst I'm not sure I like the sundering of everything as a solution (if it was intentional), hopefully hearing Hydaelyn's explanation of events will better explain why it was essential.

[Erendis]

I'm wondering how did the Ascians leap to the conclusion that Zodiark would be able to bring back the 75% of the ancients that sacrificed their lives and souls to Zodiark to stop a calamity and bring new life back to the planet. Are they seeing this as some sort of Rhea and Kronos baby God eating scenario? Wouldn't those souls/aether have been used up in the process or am I just over thinking the aetherial digestive system of a primal?

Since Emet-Selch could see dead souls perhaps he (and possibly some others) saw the souls of the sacrificed inside Zodiark and maybe they were suffering there and that's why they decided to free them?

[Cilia]

I'd agree it would've been a big overreaction if that were the case. Hythlodaeus was so vague it could've meant almost anything! Whilst I'm not sure I like the sundering of everything as a solution (if it was intentional), hopefully hearing Hydaelyn's explanation of events will better explain why it was essential.

The sundering of everything, of reality, was just an unfortunate side-effect of splitting Zodiark. Due to him being "the will of the star made manifest," sundering Zodiark consequently sundered the planet and everything on it down to an aetherial level, creating the separate shards and Source. (The only ones to escape this were Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Lahabrea, somehow.)

What Hythlodaeus says, near-verbatim (I'm not going to look it up exactly), is that the plan post-planetary restoration was to "nurture the planet until it was bursting with vitality," then "sacrifice some of that planetary life energy to Zodiark to restore those brethren who were sacrificed to bring him into being." While this may not be entirely precise, I do remember "planetary life energy" being used verbatim, though exactly what that meant or included is nebulous. Presumably this would have included some number of plants and animals, up to and including sapient beings.

[Alleo]

I'm wondering how did the Ascians leap to the conclusion that Zodiark would be able to bring back the 75% of the ancients that sacrificed their lives and souls to Zodiark to stop a calamity and bring new life back to the planet. Are they seeing this as some sort of Rhea and Kronos baby God eating scenario? Wouldn't those souls/aether have been used up in the process or am I just over thinking the aetherial digestive system of a primal?

Well they have just created something that was able to rewrite the laws of existance and saved a death planet. Maybe they thought that he simply could do everything. Being struck by grief might have helped to form that view.

Or since they are tempered it was something Zodiark told them and they just believed him. If he in any form as some form of will it could be that he liked getting energy and thus "promised" them to give them back if they get him something else for it. Maybe he would have brought them back in the form of soulless bodies or maybe he never planned to. I am looking forward to future information on how much Zodiark and Hydealyn have their own agenda.

[Alleo]

- Emet’s words were in response to Alphinaud’s appeal to him to look to the present, rather than continuing to dwell on the past, explaining one of the reasons he wasn’t prepared to abandon his objectives.

Yes Emets words alone could be just taken as him saying that about the people now but together with Hytlos words about giving the planets into the hands of the new life and not the anicents anymore and then have Emet later confirm that its about the new races being the new stewards makes it feel to me that this was meant to show that the new life might have been the spoken races.

Also about the sundering: Well if they had not done anything then all these survivors would have probably been killed too. We are talking about tempered people that came from a city that saw itself as the best of the world and that waited with a solution until it was at their own doorsteps. They also only talked about getting those Amaurotines souls back even though that could simply be because the rest can be reborn. (Which then begs the question if they too were part of the new life..) We also know that 75% of the survivors were needed to create Zodiark and rebuilt the planet. Thus only 25% were even left. Even if most of them would be on Hydealyns side she would still had a huge amount of souls less then Zodiark. I for one do believe that the sundering was planned and that they saw it as necessary, especially since Zodiark was part of the planet now (as the will of the planet) and his complete destruction might have destroyed things. (It could also be that they saw it as necessary to split the power of creation because they might have had more information than we do and saw that history would just repeat itself or that everyone would fall under the tempering)

Yes animals act on their own but if you see yourself as the protector of the planet then I doubt you would say that you will give that role to the new life if its just animals. Animals dont protect. They simply live. Of course animals could have also been part of the process (if they imo had souls) but I really doubt that it was only about them. Also why should some of the ancients even think that? IMO it only makes sense if they believe that their rule is over and the new sapient life that grows right now should have the right. Otherwise if its just about simple animals why talk about it at all?

Well Zodiark needed 50% of the surviving Amaurotines to even exist. I dobut that they would have used human sacrifice if they had other huge aether storages. We know from the game that even the WoL with 8 of 14 soul parts did not even come near their power, heck they were even surprised that a child had such low aether. I somehow doubt that any animal had nearly as much aether as they did. Also beast tribes may be called like that but as far as we know they are just like the spoken races and have a soul. They are not like the animals we see around. Right now we have not a single example were an animal was directly used to summon a primal.

Not only would it be a backwards step but also means that Zodiark needed to work again to restore life. Because you cant just take out a huge part of the planets life without consequences. And now you have a circle of sacrifice. But again I doubt that we talk about plants.

Edit: sry for the double post..forgot that I already posted on before that...but at least the post is not that huge thanks to that.

The japanese part of Hytlos speech included these sentences:

Time would pass, and eventually life would flourish again. They reconsidered the best way for humanity to continue their guardianship of this star once that time came.
The Council of Fourteen presented this conclusion.
That when the time was ripe, and the world bountiful with life, they would sacrifice a portion of it to Zodiark...
Such that he might revive those whose aether he had consumed for power, and everyone would once again oversee the world together.
But there were those who did not agree.
They believed that it was time for the sacrifices to come to an end, and for them to hand the new world over to the new lives living upon it.

[Rannie]

And reading that tells me that the english portion of it just decided to use different wording that mean the exact same thing. Like instead of guardianship the English word used is protect. Bursting with Vitality instead of bountiful with life ...

Also Alleo I think I may now be leaning towards the Ascians are just tempered idiots.

Edit: it also makes me wonder about exactly how much life they are talking about in terms of Sacrifice could just equal one soul of an ancient race who could live for ages and were extremely powerful to begin with. I kinda doubt the life needed ratio would be 1:1.