How do we feel about tank damage right now?

[Derio]

Its the game's fault for not having enough tank mechanics. Simply they need to increase the amount of tank busters, tank swaps and add more add phases instead of just making tanks second rate dps.

[J-Reyno]

I'd like if tanks had more necessary tank things to do. Currently it's just pressing a CD or two, and maybe Provoke/Shirk 3 times per fight. If there an add you hit it and you don't aim the boss at your dps. Sure you can rotate cd's efficiently to make your healers life easier but it's not necessary or part of your job, just a bonus. Emnity is done for you now.

This basically leaves dps by far as the bulk of what makes up your role.

It'd be great if tanking was an active role, that you spent the fight making full use of a toolkit with a wide range of mitigation and self heal tools, to survive a boss that was hitting like a truck. That even your main rotation was designed around mitigation and that dps could sacrifice that and was only something a very good player could push as a bonus. But it isn't. They should give us tanking that involves real tanking, but since they refuse to do that and make us glorified dps-dealing punching bags, we shouldn't hit like wet noodles.

This comment is on the money. The tank role in FFXIV is in an awful state and there are two options to address that. They can either 1) give tanks a full suite of powerful mitigation tools that are necessary and needed for the player and the party to stay alive or 2) give tanks more damage to properly reflect the moment-to-moment gameplay of the role, which is currently just doing damage.

The first option requires an overhaul of tank jobs, changes to healer jobs to account for the massively increased utility of another role, and an adjustment to ALL of the game's content.

And this is why the discussion is about damage, because we all know that will never happen.

Giving the tanks a 1k bump in dps, though? Doable.

[Kabooa]

Giving the tanks a 1k bump in dps, though? Doable.

Ever consider maybe the problem is that the damage rotation itself has very little room to actually excel in?

[J-Reyno]

Ever consider maybe the problem is that the damage rotation itself has very little room to actually excel in?

I'm not sure I get what you're suggesting, but if I understand then there are ultimately two options if you allow more room for tanks to "excel" in damage.

1) Tanks who "excel" are able to do more damage than now, solving the issue of tanks being very low impact compared to the other roles. This would be good

2) Tanks can "excel" in their role but the damage ceiling remains the same, and bad tanks do even less damage. So tanks doing their job properly end up working harder for the same contribution.

The second scenario is unacceptable. The first is good, but this is essentially a roundabout way of saying that tanks need more damage, and I'm not really concerning myself with the how right now. Whether they change the rotation, adjust the formula for tank damage so that we get more out of the current rotation, or just straight up increase potencies, doesn't really matter. If tanks get more damage out of it, then that's fine.

[Kabooa]

2) Tanks can "excel" in their role but the damage ceiling remains the same, and bad tanks do even less damage. So tanks doing their job properly end up working harder for the same contribution.

What exactly is wrong with this level of contribution other than "I don't like it"?

You have 8 glasses and a bucket. The glasses have 3 sets, and every glass within its set is the same size. The bucket's size is equal to the total volume of the 8 glasses multiplied by .8.

No matter how you adjust the the glasses, the bucket will always require .8 from each glass to be filled to the top. If you make one set of glasses bigger, the bucket increases. If you make one set of the glasses smaller, the bucket decreases.

To fill the bucket, you must use all three sets.

Explain to me why the glasses of one set should be bigger or smaller, as long as the glasses within the set are the same size.

[Billythepancake]

I guess I can throw my 2 cents in. I don't see why people care about the numbers themselves, tbh. At the end of the day, does it REALLY matter if you're pulling 100 DPS or 1,000,000 DPS? Thats not to say I don't understand being frustrated,or disappointed, in your role, I'm a SCH main, you best believe I understand that, but at the end of the day, numbers is just numbers. To use SCH as an example, I am frustrated at the changes to DPS, not in the numbers themselves, those don't bother me, but rather how I achieve those numbers. I hate that I can get a 96th percentile parse doing almost nothing but spamming 1 button and stopping on occasion to press the dot button. So I could certainly understand feeling like you don't have enough to do, but I don't understand why increasing potencies alone would fix that. Maybe adding some new attacks into your rotation, sure,I could see that helping, but not making ones you already have hit harder.

[BarretOblivion]

I guess I can throw my 2 cents in. I don't see why people care about the numbers themselves, tbh. At the end of the day, does it REALLY matter if you're pulling 100 DPS or 1,000,000 DPS? Thats not to say I don't understand being frustrated,or disappointed, in your role, I'm a SCH main, you best believe I understand that, but at the end of the day, numbers is just numbers. To use SCH as an example, I am frustrated at the changes to DPS, not in the numbers themselves, those don't bother me, but rather how I achieve those numbers. I hate that I can get a 96th percentile parse doing almost nothing but spamming 1 button and stopping on occasion to press the dot button. So I could certainly understand feeling like you don't have enough to do, but I don't understand why increasing potencies alone would fix that. Maybe adding some new attacks into your rotation, sure,I could see that helping, but not making ones you already have hit harder.

This likely what most tanks are going to be saying... at the very least DRK/WAR players. GNB/PLD have a flow that doesn't feel like there is a long 'downtime period' so to speak. WAR/DRK well once delirium/IR go on cooldown the jobs become quite a boring thing to play. Especially WAR who as the lowest APM on top of the fewest OGCDs of all the tanks to the point where if you ask any WAR how it plays they will say "IR is great... but everything else kinda sucks".

[J-Reyno]

What exactly is wrong with this level of contribution other than "I don't like it"?

You have 8 glasses and a bucket. The glasses have 3 sets, and every glass within its set is the same size. The bucket's size is equal to the total volume of the 8 glasses multiplied by .8.

No matter how you adjust the the glasses, the bucket will always require .8 from each glass to be filled to the top. If you make one set of glasses bigger, the bucket increases. If you make one set of the glasses smaller, the bucket decreases.

To fill the bucket, you must use all three sets.

Explain to me why the glasses of one set should be bigger or smaller, as long as the glasses within the set are the same size.

We all understand how the damage distribution works, what we are discussing is whether that damage distribution between the roles is appropriate and how it leaves one role feeling less impactful than others. I've also addressed this exact question multiple times, including the actual OP, and most recently here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5188337

It essentially boils down to asking why, if tanks are going to have the damage of a support, do they not have a full bar of powerful personal and party mitigation tools that are necessary and needed to complete content. If I'm going to do the damage of a support role, then I need more than a watered down dps rotation for my moment-to-moment gameplay. Where are my skills that I use consistently and frequently to tank like the healer's heals? Because pressing a mitigation skill every 60-90 seconds ain't it.

If managing my damage rotation is going to be 99% of my gameplay, then I'm going to need to do more damage than a healer role who gets all these powerful heals and then has a one-button rotation for damage.

This may or may not be something that matters to you, but this is not about whether the role CAN contribute, it's about HOW it contributes. This is something that will be a matter of opinion, but hopefully we can at least reach that understanding and stop going in circles about how the damage distribution between roles works.

[Nedkel]

Except, no?
What, are you suddenly going to not care about pushing your damage just because your cap is lower than where you think it should be?
Because -that- makes everyone work harder.
Further, given that every tank in Stormblood, other than Warrior, contributed no actual boosts to the party, if you go back to those data logs and start pruning the bonuses they benefited from, it actually is pretty comparable to our situation now.
Shave off 7-8% from Paladin/Dark Knight, and 10% from warrior. And that's just from slashing, and if you want to be 'technical' about it, you shave off 5%, since you usually had a Samurai or Ninja in the party as well. 6.6% if both.

Didnt know only tanks used to benefit from team wide bonuses... duh

Shave off these percents from DPS and see what you will get.

[Kabooa]

Didnt know only tanks used to benefit from team wide bonuses... duh

Shave off these percents from DPS and see what you will get.

You get less drastic reductions because it was the DPS and non-White mages bringing those boosts.

The only things the tanks brought was slashing, and that was only warrior, and it wasn't unique to them.

Samurai, Black Mage, and Machinist are the ones who dip once we start pruning.

Ninja shoots up. Dragoon shoots -way up-. Bard might be equivalent to where it is now, but likely raises just a tad. Red mage goes up. Summoner goes up. Astro goes up. Scholar goes down a bit.

Tanks?

They -tank-, with the exception of Warrior since it brought its own Slashing.