Concept for a Magic Melee DPS

[Eloah]

I personally like seeing people's job ideas... >w>

I actually meant I scrapped an exposition on Red Mage and Mystic Knight, about how they are, play off one another and their context in 14. But now that you mention it, maybe I will make an idea for it.

[Katie_Kitty]

People who say Red Mage is/should be a melee-centric and/or sword magic job is totally out of touch about what Red Mage is anyway. That's literally what Mystic Knight is.

Who's saying that? I haven't seen anyone say that. I've seen people say they play RDM because it's the closest thing to a mystic knight that we have, but literally nobody says the job should me melee-centric. What we're saying, or at least what I'm saying, is that RDM should have more than just a tacked-on melee combo and more than just a worthless tacked-on cure.

[Brightshadow]

Mystic Knight would be cool, I loved in FF9 my duo of Vivi and Steiner because they were a powerful combo. I Would love for a Mystic Knight to work something like that in this game. Elemental attacks and a Frontline caster spellblader. They can even share gear with Dragoon's

[Duelle]

Since people don't want to see off-topic arguments (can't say I blame them), I'll leave the relevant part visible and put everything else in spoiler tags.

DNC may not be melee but it offers an oGCD heal, as does SMN, so it's at least an open possibility, and it wouldn't be a terrible stretch for a Spellblade to offer some kind of group mitigation instead of a heal. (And while I'm sure you were simply trying to limit it to "won't offer restoratives", on the off-chance you meant "utility in general" I would remind you that there is so much potential for En-spells.)

I'd have no problem with Mystic Knight having a party-wide damage mitigation buff, though the overlap with Tactician makes that somewhat risky. AoE weapon enchants as the job's answer to Battle Litany/Brotherhood is something worthy of consideration, though that would really make me wish stuff like Foe's Requiem would make a return.

It doesn't matter if you can still proc Dualcast at range, since your core DPS rotation (not just the burst, but your main spammable combo) would be executed in melee and any casting benefits would be as "tacked on" as you claim melee is now.

Two things here:

1) The current design's melee combo can be replaced with one or two spells that consume the balance gauge to give you access to Verflare/Verholy for a net gain or 2-3 skill slots that could accommodate anything. The system I've suggested is non-equivalent seeing that Verspells in the writeup have a 20y range, meaning a RDM can finish their combo if a telegraph pops that forces them to moves out of melee range. It also means target swaps (I know these don't often happen in this game) don't interrupt you much if you're in the right part of the combo (assuming Clarity proc, Verspell => Balestra => weaponskill if Dualcast didn't proc).

2) If the sword is to see any significant use (read: more than once every 45 seconds), the job would have to stand in the front lines.

Something to keep in mind is that you still have instants that can be used from range. Both Verdia and Jolt also also have the chance to proc Dualcast (since my version of Dualcast can proc from spells that don't have cast times), in addition to Swiftcast + spell of your choice. As a last resort, you could spam Scatter to fish for procs (admittedly awkward), though that's not going to generate the best results by design (see my comments on Jolt below for a possible solution to this). Also note that my write up's AoE rotation is entirely usable from range. That's also by design.

You've created Dragoon where Piercing Talon also gains a melee combo bonus (or High Jump and Mirage Dive are on the GCD), that doesn't make it any less token as a ranged attack if it's jammed between two melee attacks for it.

Between? The instant-cast buff is attained after the second weaponskill in the combo. You essentially have the choice of ending the combo in an instant spell (that generates gauge, deals higher damage, and can be used on a target outside of melee range) or Death Blossom (which increases target's damage taken from your spells for 30s).

Except in this case you've given the ranged attack(s) a cast time, so even with Dualcast (whose proc chance you've reduced, meaning even more time hard-casting at a distance), no melee would actually use it in any realistic scenario where they're forced to be at-range.

So you'd do nothing while out of melee range? How about casting Scatter and hoping for a Dualcast proc (I even gave it the same cast time it has in-game)? How about spending gauge on Jolt (which can also proc Dualcast)? How about spending Swiftcast if you have it available (which can also proc Dualcast)? Hell, toss an ally a Vercure, since that also can proc Dualcast. Unless the mob has one of those lengthy telegraphs, you shouldn't be that strapped for things to do out of melee range.

That said, this is actually something I've been mulling over, as I once had a stand-in for Jolt with a 100% change to proc Dualcast but was told it made the design unfocused. I could bring it back by changing the write-up's version of Jolt to 100% proc Dualcast, reduce the gauge cost to 15/20 and nerf its damage to 100 potency. So thanks for the feedback.

but you've so fundamentally changed it from the current RDM (you have about 7? of the same skills, most of those are in-name only and then rest are utilities non-essential to the rotation) that it's a completely different job to start with.

That was sort of the point. The writeup is a redesign of the job. I don't expect SE to actually use the writeup, but it does illustrate that there's more to RDM than spell spam, token sword use and needlessly jumping around the battlefield.

a) Which is, by and large, what you've designed anyway.

Try saying that to a Mystic Knight whose damage options vanish the moment the enemy gets out of melee range. The design I'm calling for would be magical sword strikes that interact with the system the OP suggested (elemental resource bars that feed an "ultimate" mode). There's no spell use involved as we know it; this thing isn't casting fire to enemies 20-25y away, but may have a firebrand mode that alters some of its weaponskills.

Flinging a spell at point-blank range is little different from the act of any other point-blank melee attack -- again, NIN says hi, and SAM is happy to share its cast times.

And as I've said, NIN's magic is gated behind the ninjutsu recast timer and Ninki. My writeup discourages hard-casting stuff in melee range after lv15, so there's little to relate to with SAM's Iaijutsu cast time.

b) We don't even use Vercure for utility, it's just a means to proc Dualcast during downtime or self-heal when soloing.

The difference between having a cure (even a weak one) and having no cures at all is still notable. No, it's not going to save you on fights with strict enrage timers or where misspent GCDs will lead to a wipe, but it's still more than what most other jobs have.

If it was purely about increasing melee uptime in the current system, you'd be focusing on improving the spells available to Red Mage in order to shift the Mana Economy and increase melee combos per minute.

You'd need to increase the threshold for difference between white and black mana if you want to go that route, because otherwise you'll hit imbalance the moment you do melee combo => Verflare/Verholy => Scorch => Verstone/Verfire. As it stands, the system is set to bring you within a hair of hitting imbalance, so messing with the amount of mana generated would call for a change in that.

[dinnertime]

Who's saying that? I haven't seen anyone say that. I've seen people say they play RDM because it's the closest thing to a mystic knight that we have, but literally nobody says the job should me melee-centric. What we're saying, or at least what I'm saying, is that RDM should have more than just a tacked-on melee combo and more than just a worthless tacked-on cure.

Then I don't see why Red Mage even needed to be mentioned in this thread so extensively in the first place. Red Mage having more melees? Sure. Saying no to Mystic Knight because Red Mage should be the only one to have magic melee/spellblade on its toolkit? Absolutely not.
All your post did was derail the thread from an actual discussion about Mystic Knight.

[Archwizard]

Since people don't want to see off-topic arguments

I would say it's very on-topic, as I am arguing that your design could be adapted in part for exactly the kind of Magic Melee DPS this thread is discussing, if you would simply stop insisting it's RDM or nothing.

I'd have no problem with Mystic Knight having a party-wide damage mitigation buff, though the overlap with Tactician makes that somewhat risky. AoE weapon enchants as the job's answer to Battle Litany/Brotherhood is something worthy of consideration, though that would really make me wish stuff like Foe's Requiem would make a return.

There are enough overlapping skills already in this game that I won't even bat an eye at it -- hell, there's enough that Tactician literally names two of them as skills that should be used sequentially rather than stacked, and that's still not accounting for the alternatives brought by healers and tanks that can be stacked, like Asylum, Temperance, Dark Missionary, etc.

Alternately, something that might be even more fitting, a mass EnDrain. Give everyone a health leech as an alternative to mitigation or HoTs.

If the sword is to see any significant use (read: more than once every 45 seconds), the job would have to stand in the front lines.

Let's not get wires crossed here. "More than once every 45 seconds" could be "Once every 45 seconds unless you hit Manafication to bring that down to 20 sec every 2 minutes" or flat out "Once every 40 seconds" and still fit that criteria, which is closer to what we have with Scorch anyway -- but we both know that's not what you're asking for, is it.
Which brings us back to "you've designed what is, at its core, a melee job."

Between? The instant-cast buff is attained after the second weaponskill in the combo. You essentially have the choice of ending the combo in an instant spell (that generates gauge, deals higher damage, and can be used on a target outside of melee range) or Death Blossom (which increases target's damage taken from your spells for 30s).

... Yes, it's at the end of the combo, which means it's right before the next combo. Unless the spell you're casting is Death, there is a follow-up, so its still jammed between two melee skills.

Slight aside: Have you considered "Imperil" as an alternative to Death Blossom? It's a skill from FF13 that increased the target's vulnerability to magic.

So you'd do nothing while out of melee range?

You have levels in 6 out of 8 tanking and melee jobs. You have experience, so use it.

Realistically, at any point you're out of range of the boss as a melee, one of three things is happening:
1) The boss is moving, probably because they have some kind of dash attack. Your best bet is to close the gap as quickly as possible so you can return to comboing, not to stand still hardcasting a spell.
2) Bullet Hell phase. Your best bet is to keep moving and throw what ranged attacks you have that won't stop your run, because if you stop moving for any considerable period, it's very likely you'll die. It's exactly the scenario that would have doomed an unprepared BLM's DPS before ShB, exactly what RDMs gained Reprise for in spite of Dualcast (and bear in mind, without the guaranteed Dualcast, you can't reliably slidecast either), and exactly why every single melee's ranged attacks are instant effects.
3) The boss has some kind of physical impediment preventing you from reaching them with melee for an extended period, like the Ice phase in Thunder God. Assuming the boss isn't completely immune to damage at this point anyway, there is probably something else for you, as a melee, to be doing other than standing around spamming spells on the boss, like wailing on an Icewolf instead.

By design, the number of scenarios where a sheer amount of specifically ranged power is required, particularly of a primarily melee job, is minimal.

That said, this is actually something I've been mulling over, as I once had a stand-in for Jolt with a 100% change to proc Dualcast but was told it made the design unfocused. I could bring it back by changing the write-up's version of Jolt to 100% proc Dualcast, reduce the gauge cost to 15/20 and nerf its damage to 100 potency. So thanks for the feedback.

So, use an instant to pop Dualcast.

Good luck making us any less of a rezbot in that case.

And as I've said, NIN's magic is gated behind the ninjutsu recast timer and Ninki.

If you think the availability window of NIN's attacks is relevant to the point I'm making, you're missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if NIN only gets a spell out every 20 seconds compared to your design getting out one every 7.5 seconds -- at the end of the day you're still launching fireballs at point-blank.

The difference between having a cure (even a weak one) and having no cures at all is still notable

Tell that to SMNs when they complain about Physick, tell me how that goes.

You'd need to increase the threshold for difference between white and black mana if you want to go that route, because otherwise you'll hit imbalance the moment you do melee combo => Verflare/Verholy => Scorch => Verstone/Verfire. As it stands, the system is set to bring you within a hair of hitting imbalance, so messing with the amount of mana generated would call for a change in that.

If you went the route of scaling up the Mana gained from the existing Verspells, sure. There are plenty of other ways to increase Mana generation without just buffing the spells that can contribute to imbalance.
For instance, introducing new spells that generate Mana more efficiently, as seen with Scorch (and I expect is the most likely way we'll see our combos speed up in the future). Introducing traits like Improved Manafication for other Mana-relevant CDs and effects, like Acceleration. Adding Mana to oGCD skills like Fleche, or increasing the amounts generated by our Mana-balanced spells like Jolt. Introducing abilities to hasten our spellcasting in general.
And if you loathe the idea of buffing casting somehow, you could just straight-up reduce the cost of melee. Tons of ways.

Who's saying that? I haven't seen anyone say that. I've seen people say they play RDM because it's the closest thing to a mystic knight that we have,

It would also be far stronger overall and steal players away from RDM who want a spellsword type class.

Sounds like there's demand for Spellblade then. Why not just let them have it, rather than holding that fantasy ransom to RDM?

[Katie_Kitty]

Then I don't see why Red Mage even needed to be mentioned in this thread so extensively in the first place. Red Mage having more melees? Sure. Saying no to Mystic Knight because Red Mage should be the only one to have magic melee/spellblade on its toolkit? Absolutely not.
All your post did was derail the thread from an actual discussion about Mystic Knight.

Maybe you would benefit from going back and actually reading my post. I never said what you seem to think I said.

[Wayfinder3]

Then I don't see why Red Mage even needed to be mentioned in this thread so extensively in the first place. Red Mage having more melees? Sure. Saying no to Mystic Knight because Red Mage should be the only one to have magic melee/spellblade on its toolkit? Absolutely not.
All your post did was derail the thread from an actual discussion about Mystic Knight.

FFXIV is heavily wrapped in it's lore so there is a point to be made by having similar disciplines. RDM in lore Enhances their blade with magic to preform combat, without that magic, the RDM is hitting like a BLM with a cane. Thus the core concept of RDM is spellblade and magic and, creating another job with the same distinction would require double dipping as well as contradictions in lore. the only reasonable way of justifying it's existence is that RUM/MYK hale from different shards and as a result developed differently than rdm despite being the same fundamentally. (CNJ and GEO are similar to this as, geomancer is just the eastern version of CNJ in this games lore) RDM also has a unique existence (if i recall correctly, The player, Aya, alisae, and the job quest master are the last 4 know RDMs to exist) as it was created through circumstances that should be impossible to replicate on other shards (The 6th Umbral Era and the Great Flood that would be braved by it's ancestors the Mhach and Amdapori) This is why Alisae is the only RDM you see on Norvrandt as it wouldn't make sense for that discipline to exist there in the same way. sadly, if they did chose to introduce otherworldly versions of RDM from the other shards and dubbed it MYS/RUM, it'd likely just be through name only like Geomancer is for Conjure.

Thus it'd likely be easier to just, implement aspects of spellblade and magical mastery into the job thats already capable of it, than justifying a reason for a similar discipline to exist. i bring up Lore because the dev team is very adamant about it, it's the reason classes like SMN and SCH have had a hard time distinguishing themselves from each other and XIV is likely the most world/story driven mmo on the market. It'd also be much easier to just add to RDM these traits than to make a new job thats supposedly the same but more Melee than magic.

[Archwizard]

RDM also has a unique existence (if i recall correctly, The player, Aya, alisae, and the job quest master are the last 4 know RDMs to exist) as it was created through circumstances that should be impossible to replicate on other shards (The 6th Umbral Era and the Great Flood that would be braved by it's ancestors the Mhach and Amdapori) This is why Alisae is the only RDM you see on Norvrandt as it wouldn't make sense for that discipline to exist there in the same way. sadly, if they did chose to introduce otherworldly versions of RDM from the other shards and dubbed it MYS/RUM,

While this is true in that regard, the First does have recognized variations on Thaumaturgy, Conjury, etc by the same names. Of note, flashbacks to the battles of the previous Warriors of Light show Nyelbert and Lamitt using "Ronkan" variations of spells we recognize on the Source. It follows then that not only did the Ronkan Empire manage to create what we believed to be mutually exclusive magical disciplines that were able to coexist (unlike Mhach, Nym and Amdapor), but could have perfected disciplines that we haven't seen on Hydaelyn.
Hell, at one point Renda-Rae jokes about hiring a Necromancer, while the main Necromancer we know on Eorzea, Nybeth Obdilord, is literally from another world.

It is, of course, too early in the expansion to be definitive about anything with regards to the lore, and I expect we'll end up exploring more of the history of Norvrandt through its remainder, possibly including glimpses at these civilizations in their prime.

Thus it'd likely be easier to just, implement aspects of spellblade and magical mastery into the job thats already capable of it, than justifying a reason for a similar discipline to exist.

It'd also be much easier to just add to RDM these traits than to make a new job thats supposedly the same but more Melee than magic.

None of us arguing in the defense of Spellblade have said anything about the jobs being "supposedly the same" -- it's largely an assertion by those like Katie, who baselessly and very presumptuously believe any future melee DPS will "rob RDM of expansion to its melee repertoire." (Which is a hilariously ironic concern considering RDM is literally based on cloning skills from two other jobs already.)
If anything, "the same but more melee" better describes Katie and Duelle's requests for RDM than other posters' requests for Spellblade.

Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer are different enough from Red Mage that in nearly every entry the Spellblade archetype appears, Red Mage is already there co-existing (including in FF11), in addition to the potential of drawing inspiration from non-classed FF protagonists to fill out its kit (ie the way Gunbreaker did with Squall).
They're about as alike as RDM is to SCH, and less so than Dancer and Bard have historically been.

i bring up Lore because the dev team is very adamant about it, it's the reason classes like SMN and SCH have had a hard time distinguishing themselves from each other and XIV is likely the most world/story driven mmo on the market.

On the other hand, the lore is constantly being built upon and retcons happen all the time. Hrothgar were never even hinted at before this expansion, and their existence is key to the lore of the Gunbreaker job we just got as a means to explain we're not using Garlean tech. To attempt to justify balance using lore is a horrible system, particularly when the devs' process is more likely to be the other way around.

Besides, SMN and SCH "having a hard time distinguishing themselves from each other" has nothing to do with the lore, it's a carryover from 1.0's coding that the devs can't figure out how to undo.

(CNJ and GEO are similar to this as, geomancer is just the eastern version of CNJ in this games lore)

it'd likely just be through name only like Geomancer is for Conjure.

Bit off-topic, but not actually true; Geomancer isn't simply an Eastern Conjurer. Conjurers live in communion with spirits, while Geomancers use their powers to repel or even subjugate them. Their spells evoke the same elements but in different manners that you can see throughout Stormblood (particularly the Swallow's Compass dungeon), in addition to the job's history as a supportive DPS throughout previous FF games. Many of the requests for a Geomancer are for a magical DPS that uses the earth, wind and water magic that White Mage will never get to with its shift towards Holy magic, such as the spells Quake, Tornado and Flood.

[dinnertime]

Maybe you would benefit from going back and actually reading my post. I never said what you seem to think I said.

As someone who plays RDM, this idea (implementation of Mystic Knight) gets a big NOPE from me. It's not that it's inherently bad so much as it's just another job that would overshadow red mage and make it even more irrelevant. Bring a job like that in and now RDM really would be nothing but its raise and people would still use it as an excuse to keep the job down. I agree with the poster above me, just give RDM more options for melee attacks. That will never happen of course because square is full of cowards and devoid of any and all creative energy but yeah it would be nice.

???
If you mean "I don't want RDM getting overshadowed from getting melee magic" instead of "Only RDM should have melee magic" that's basically the same thing in context worded differently.

stuff

Alright, lore again. First of all...they're not as adamant with the lore as you think. They've retconned lore in favor of new things/jobs/races getting added. It's not always set in stone, instead it's a stepping stone, otherwise things would be too restrictive and Red Mage wouldn't even be a thing.

Let's talk about what Red Mage even is in the lore. Red Mage is a product of Mhaci Black Mages and Amdapori White Mages who've banded together after being persecuted for causing the 6th Umbral Calamity, however instead of 'borrowing' aether from the land to cast magic like Black and White Mage do, they use their own aether which produces less potent magic but it's to prevent their past mistakes. It's what makes them 'weak' compared to Black and White Mages but this is quite dangerous and can kill them. This is where RDM's spellblade comes into play. The sword and fencing is more of an afterthought as they were experimenting on how to be efficient with using less aether, with the help of some Ishgardian friends with the fencing and their own improvisation, they enchant their sword fighting with the black and white mana they've accumulated. Yes, spellblade (but the RDM mentor actually call it red magic) is part of Red Mage but...it's not something they primarily do honestly and Mystic Knight is much more than that. That and they don't even point out that RDM's sword magic something super unique to them, especially when the job is designed to be so accessible.

Mystic Knight doesn't need to be from a different shard to even be reasonable. You're too concerned that they might be too similar or contradict with lore when the job you're comparing it to something that literally borrows black and white magic. Not only that, Norvrandt has their own version of Black and White magic that it's not out of the realm of possibility that their own version of Red Mage can exist in there, but whatever. Also Red Mage isn't very restrictive as it's not forbidden like Black/White Mage is labeled as and was designed to be accessible so there can be more Red Mages if they want. The art became ancient because people lost interest and faded away but I'm not too sure.

Yes, there's going to be different iterations of the similar art but that's actually realistic because things can either influence each other, borrow from one another or just shared the same idea but found independently. There's Conjury and Sharlayan Astrology being similar to Geomancy, and Thaumaturgy and Conjury being basically Black and White magic except with a different way to take aether and a more safer practice in casting magic, then Allagan summoners actually using the same concept as Arcanima which is basically using math to shape aether into creatures, and Scholar and Summoner being the same in concept is literally not an issue since their main thing is shaping aether. That and Red Mage by itself is the same thing. Some of the arts of magic i've pointed out are actually playable even though they have similar concepts. Yes, all of them are actually tied to each other in gameplay but I'm pointing out the lore here. Mystic Knight and Red Mage's little sword magic being in the same realm is fine and won't hurt the lore.

There's actually so many room open for Mystic Knight in FFXIV, I don't understand why some of you think it doesn't.