Does Elidibus actually think he can defeat the WoL?

[RicaRuin]

Iirc, Elidibus didn't (only) retreat because Zenos was stronger, but because he felt Emet-Selch fade and knew he had to rethink plans.

[Riastrad]

If he goes about his plan of using Warriors of Light to deal with us, I would have to wonder if they will use a blade of light on us to defeat us. It is mentioned very often that the properties of light slow, stop, and split aether. Emet-Selch even went as far to make an example of Ryne by simulating what would happen if Hydealyn were to use her light to attack her. Could we become separated from our shards? Could Ryne? It would be one way to address the in-universe power creep the WoL undergoes every expansion.

[Sathona]

By himself not by a long shot,he needed Zenos body to almost manage that~
but he can manipulate others soo

[geekgirl101]

Elidibus can't be that smart if he thinks nurturing 5 new Warriors of Light are going to be able to defeat the Warriors of Darkness. We are 7 times rejoined with the main hero being 8 times thanks to Ardbert, so he would have to nurture the new Warriors of Light back on the Source if he wants any chance of us being defeated as well as manipulating their minds to think we're evil. Thing is everyone on the Source knows we're not evil, we've done so many good deeds and bards sing of our adventures to spread word around, so it would be very difficult for anybody to not know about us unless there's another land where we haven't yet visited where word hasn't yet got around.

The other thing also is that the Warriors of Light have never struck anyone down without due cause. The ones on the First refused to kill the Shadowkeeper as did the main hero when she asked to be struck down, and when they came to the Source as the Warriors of Darkness the hero didn't kill them. I would vouch the very same thing would happen with the new Warriors of Light if they were capable of defeating the Warriors of Darkness and I'm pretty much sure Elidibus would know this too, so he must have something else up his sleeves that we don't know about. Elidibus would probably do whatever it took to avoid direct combat with us unless we were at a disadvantage since he is only an emissary and the last of his kind, if even Emet's full force against us still resulted in his defeat then for Elidibus to go head to head with us would be suicide.

[Scintilla]

The other thing also is that the Warriors of Light have never struck anyone down without due cause. The ones on the First refused to kill the Shadowkeeper as did the main hero when she asked to be struck down, and when they came to the Source as the Warriors of Darkness the hero didn't kill them.

Although Ardbert and his comrades spared Cylva, instead turning their attention to the Ascians who manipulated her, there's several cases in which they could be argued to have (or at least attempted to) struck people down without due cause. Upon meeting the Scions in the Source they launched a completely unprovoked attack. Later, despite Thancred and Alisaie's attempts to flee, they continued to pursue them, almost killing Alisaie in the process. Ardbert also attempted to attack Minfillia out of anger around the lack of action to tackle the flood of light on the First. They may have believed their actions to have been for good cause, but then the same could be said for many other groups we have opposed: Beast Tribes, Ascians etc.

This also brings into play the whole grey-area of perspective. How many creatures has our WoL struck down for the sake of training? What of the members of the various Beast Tribes we've killed on our mission to defeat primals? Whilst some of them may have posed a threat and been willing to fight to the death, how many of them could have been more alike to Ga Bu but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Realistically, we don't know. Our actions are unmistakably good from the perspective of ourselves and the Eorzean Alliance but much less so from other viewpoints.

By himself not by a long shot,he needed Zenos body to almost manage that~
but he can manipulate others soo

Elidibus would probably do whatever it took to avoid direct combat with us unless we were at a disadvantage since he is only an emissary and the last of his kind, if even Emet's full force against us still resulted in his defeat then for Elidibus to go head to head with us would be suicide.

Given his role, it could be feasible that Elidibus' strengths may not lay in battle, though it may be too early to discount him yet. We can't compare our previous duels with Elidibus with our battle against Emet-Selch. Once it became apparent that the odds were stacking against him, Emet quickly discarded the limits of his vessel and went all out to defeat the WoL in his true form. So far, we've only ever battled Elidibus whilst he's in the confines of a vessel (albeit a highly able one).

[Stepjam]

His stinger scene had him acknowledge that all his plans have fallen apart. He knows that right now all he can do is hope that Zenos running wild kills the scions so he can reset and try again in a few centuries.

[YianKutku]

This also brings into play the whole grey-area of perspective. How many creatures has our WoL struck down for the sake of training? What of the members of the various Beast Tribes we've killed on our mission to defeat primals? Whilst some of them may have posed a threat and been willing to fight to the death, how many of them could have been more alike to Ga Bu but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Realistically, we don't know. Our actions are unmistakably good from the perspective of ourselves and the Eorzean Alliance but much less so from other viewpoints.

I would contest the idea that our actions are "unmistakably good from the perspective of ourselves and the Eorzean Alliance".

One of the major themes of our story as the Warrior of Light is that we don't know our actions are unmistakably good. We hope they are, and we base it around our own moral stance of trying to alleviate suffering. Sometimes that brings us in conflict with enemies we'd rather not have to fight, but circumstances require that we do. We don't celebrate those victories, and in Shadowbringers we mostly just lower our heads in sadness.

And so, as Warriors of Light, and as all other Warriors of Light across time and Shards, we can make mistakes, and we are also aware that we could be mistaken.

This is in contrast to the Ascians, who are utterly firm in their belief that they are in the right, or at least give the impression that they believe so. Only in Shadowbringers do we get maybe some possibility of armchair psycho-analysis that maybe they're intentionally deluding themselves, at least with Emet-Selch trying very hard to claim moral relativity.

This doesn't stop us from doing what we think/believe/hope to be right, of course. But that's almost always based on the basic goal of "alleviate and prevent suffering", and it's the methods that we have to settle for "least worst", rather than "completely justified". We question our own acts and motives, and what survives that questioning, however battered, is what we go through with. To quote a line from a comic, "Faith is nothing without Doubt, and Doubt is a harsh mistress."

Admittedly, from Stormblood onwards it feels like some of the dialogue choices for the WoL has allowed for a more bloodthirsty and cynical viewpoint, but the Scions all react with some alarm if you choose those options, so it's probably safe to say it's not something the Scions totally agree with.

Once it became apparent that the odds were stacking against him, Emet quickly discarded the limits of his vessel and went all out to defeat the WoL in his true form.

Emet-Selch: Forgive me for using an illusion to speak with you, but I must be cautious in the presence of the Ascian-slayer.

WoL: 1v1 8v1 me bro

Emet-Selch: COME AND HAVE A GO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE HARD ENOUGH

[Scintilla]

I would contest the idea that our actions are "unmistakably good from the perspective of ourselves and the Eorzean Alliance".

One of the major themes of our story as the Warrior of Light is that we don't know our actions are unmistakably good. We hope they are, and we base it around our own moral stance of trying to alleviate suffering. Sometimes that brings us in conflict with enemies we'd rather not have to fight, but circumstances require that we do. We don't celebrate those victories, and in Shadowbringers we mostly just lower our heads in sadness. And so, as Warriors of Light, and as all other Warriors of Light across time and Shards, we can make mistakes, and we are also aware that we could be mistaken.

I'd agree that we can't be utterly certain as to the overall goodness of our actions, nor do I doubt that the choices we made were done so with good intentions and to prevent suffering. However, I remain skeptical as to the acknowledgement of this lack of certainty.
Such a change in reaction to victory only came about in ShB, with very jubilant celebrations continuing through ARR and HW (I stand corrected on this point. Thanks SaberMaxwell!), to be replaced with a more subdued reaction in SB and the reflective one in ShB. Our decisions are made with good intentions, based around our own moral stance (a stance not shared by all, hence my previous post contesting that "everyone on the Source knows we're not evil"). However, if we do possess even the smallest element of uncertainty in our actions or an awareness that we are capable of making mistakes, why has there been such a lack of receptiveness to talk with and learn more of our opponents? To obtain a better knowledge, enabling us to make a more informed decision, better able to confirm or question our actions?
I don't deny that the Ascians are no better for this; their secretive nature being one major reason for the above. But I feel that not all blame for the lack of discussion can be placed at their feet.

This is in contrast to the Ascians, who are utterly firm in their belief that they are in the right, or at least give the impression that they believe so. Only in Shadowbringers do we get maybe some possibility of armchair psycho-analysis that maybe they're intentionally deluding themselves, at least with Emet-Selch trying very hard to claim moral relativity.

On at least two occasions an Ascian has approached the Scions in peace simply to discuss. On both of those occasions they (unsurprisingly) received a hostile response. So which is the most firm in their belief that they were in the right? Those who have approached in an attempt to debate (or claim to, at least)? Or those who have met such invitations with scorn and hostility?
I'm very doubtful a compromise would even be possible and I don't deny that the chances of the Ascians suddenly changing their plans after a chat with the Scions are zero. However, if the Scions were so aware of their potential to make mistakes and the possible limits in their knowledge, would it not make some sense to take the opportunity to learn more? Whether to reinforce our current path as the best one or to use the new information gleaned to make better informed future decisions.
Alphinaud and Urianger, whilst understandably suspicious, seemed somewhat more open to Emet's proposal and the prospect of learning more of their adversary. In stark contrast, Thancred shows no inclination whatsoever to listen to what Emet has to say.

A complete unwillingness to listen to and give genuine thought to an opposing opinion, even if they know it's one they will be unlikely ever to agree with, shows narrow-mindedness and a high level of self-assurance. Something that both sides could be argued to be guilty of.


Perhaps you're right; my use of "undoubtedly" was probably a bit of a stretch! Though the main point in my post was more to contest the view that "everyone on the Source knows we're not evil".
Are our actions made for good by our own perspective? Yes.
Can our actions be viewed as for good by everyone? No.

[SaberMaxwell]

Coming in to point something out: no, we've had a few different reactions to dungeon victories as far back as ARR. Two that come to mind are Wanderer's Palace HM and Tan Tara HM, where we were disgusted and mournful respectively.

[Alleo]

Does anyone else find it funny that Elidibus' new plan of "I'll kill the Warrior of Darkness with Warriors of Light! I am a genius!" is not only exactly the same plan he had in Heavensward but also a major part of the reason that Emet-Selch failed in Shadowbringers?

Yes I found it funny too. "Oh the plan in bringing WoDs to us did not work, lets try it with WoLs this time.." First where does he find them and how does he tell them that its necessary to kill us? Ardbert was understandable because he just wanted to save his shard no matter the costs. But since they had planned the firsts destruction I have a hard time seeing that any other shard is on the brink of it..

I also dont understand him. The Ascians have been at this for a long time. Now they nearly did two calamities in a very short amount of time..why not simply wait until our character dies of old age? Even if they are somehow reborn right away they would still need x amount of years to grow up. Why risk it?