Bard's Thematic Future

[HyoMinPark]

Because it makes more sense for Ranger to stem from Archer, and also allows for Bards to actually have a Harp weapon instead of a bow. Essentially, your argument is you want to fight over the specific slot Bard currently occupies, even if everything about the Bard identity transfers to a different slot, and you have access to that slot just as you would if it weren't moved. I don't really see what's so special about THAT specific slot that it's worth arguing over.

Unfortunately for you, the developers decided about 7 years ago to make Bard stem from Archer. Not Ranger, but Bard. Bards utilize a harp less now than they did in ARR, HW, or even SB: at least then, their support was tied to the harp weapon despite it not being a sort of main or offhand. With SB, they also got flutes.

The point of my entire argument is that individuals that want Ranger are being selfish by trying to oust Bard out of the “specific spot” it’s had since 1.20. They aren’t considering what BRD players want; they are just thinking about what they want. And apparently it’s not enough to have Ranger as a separate thing. As I said repeatedly: why are Bards the ones who have to give up their already established job (and everything along with it) to please those who want Ranger?

Clearly you must think it’s special enough to advocate for taking it away from Bard for Ranger as opposed to Ranger being a 6.0/7.0 job.

And I am aware of the "make Bard more Bard-like" debate all around, but the reason why it's settling on mediocrity is because archetype of a battle-musician and an archer are not things that have ever been welded together nor do they mix in a way that satisfies the fantasy both camps desire. Why should we fight for a job to be a kinda-archer/kinda-bard when we can just have an Archer and Bard as two separate entities?

I’m fairly certain the reasons why Bard lost its support has little to do with Archer+Bard incompatibility and more from the developers wanting to prevent the job from dominating as it has so often in the past. SB BRD was very praised for how “BRD-like” it felt without succumbing to this pure BRD archetype present in games like FFXI. A hybrid job is perfectly capable of existing, as BRD did up until this expansion. And, if the hybrid can exist, why is there a need to destroy it and separate it? There is no need: there’s only a desire by those who want Ranger.

If the argument for separate entities was to be made, you’re about 6 years too late for it.



Speaking for myself: I’m pleased with the hybrid design. I like BRD wielding a bow and arrow, and I don’t see said weapon being exclusive to a Ranger. So the argument about how Bards can’t be bow wielders seems weak to me. Implementing more harp/flute aspects is perfectly fine. But there’s little need to take the bow away and give it to Ranger. Especially since I think a crossbow would be far more suiting.

[SaitoHikari]

Unfortunately for you, the developers decided about 7 years ago to make Bard stem from Archer. Not Ranger, but Bard. Bards utilize a harp less now than they did in ARR, HW, or even SB: at least then, their support was tied to the harp weapon despite it not being a sort of main or offhand. With SB, they also got flutes.

The point of my entire argument is that individuals that want Ranger are being selfish by trying to oust Bard out of the “specific spot” it’s had since 1.20. They aren’t considering what BRD players want; they are just thinking about what they want. And apparently it’s not enough to have Ranger as a separate thing. As I said repeatedly: why are Bards the ones who have to give up their already established job (and everything along with it) to please those who want Ranger?

Clearly you must think it’s special enough to advocate for taking it away from Bard for Ranger as opposed to Ranger being a 6.0/7.0 job.

Speaking for myself: I’m pleased with the hybrid design. I like BRD wielding a bow and arrow, and I don’t see said weapon being exclusive to a Ranger. So the argument about how Bards can’t be bow wielders seems weak to me. Implementing more harp/flute aspects is perfectly fine. But there’s little need to take the bow away and give it to Ranger. Especially since I think a crossbow would be far more suiting.

Also speaking for myself, I love the design of Bard in this game too. This is by far the most interesting Archer class I've played in any MMO, and I'd rather not see it get pointlessly destroyed and split into two classes that are likely to be designed to generic standards and with inferior mechanics and gameplay. Bard design is literally already a Ranger with songs instead of pets anyway, I feel like some of the hand-wringing over this just revolves around the fact that it's literally called Bard instead of Ranger.

(Hyomin and I have both cleared UwU as Bards as well, I'm fairly sure the developers are more inclined to listen to people who are actually passionate about the class, over someone from the outside that wants to gut it.)

On another note, to drive home the point that splitting them is actually a lot harder than what people here may think, I challenge you all to come up with exact ideas on how this should be done. Instead of the usual 'I want this to be done, I'll leave it to the devs to figure out the logistics themselves'. I spent the last two nights coming up with ideas on what could be done with current Bard, and that's a lot easier on the developers than what some of you are proposing. And yet it still requires a ton of thought.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5167612
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5168653

[HyoMinPark]

On another note, to drive home the point that splitting them is actually a lot harder than what people here may think, I challenge you all to come up with exact ideas on how this should be done. Instead of the usual 'I want this to be done, I'll leave it to the devs to figure out the logistics themselves'. I spent the last two nights coming up with ideas on what could be done with current Bard, and that's a lot easier on the developers than what some of you are proposing. And yet it still requires a ton of thought.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5167612
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5168653

To piggy back on the ideas Saito has brainstormed, it also falls on the developers to balance any gameplay changes that are implemented. This is crucial to prevent BRD from dominating the physical ranged spot, as it has wont to do. As we are seeing in Shadowbringers, balance is not easily obtained.

However, reworking BRD to be more BRD-y is far less work than the Archer > Ranger and Bard split people are advocating for in this discussion. Even with the difficulty of attempting to make BRD more like its namesake (and not be a clunky and/or busted mess).

[ty_taurus]

Also speaking for myself, I love the design of Bard in this game too. This is by far the most interesting Archer class I've played in any MMO, and I'd rather not see it get pointlessly destroyed and split into two classes that are likely to be designed to generic standards and with inferior mechanics and gameplay. Bard design is literally already a Ranger with songs instead of pets anyway, I feel like some of the hand-wringing over this just revolves around the fact that it's literally called Bard instead of Ranger.

(Hyomin and I have both cleared UwU as Bards as well, I'm fairly sure the developers are more inclined to listen to people who are actually passionate about the class, over someone from the outside that wants to gut it.)

On another note, to drive home the point that splitting them is actually a lot harder than what people here may think, I challenge you all to come up with exact ideas on how this should be done. Instead of the usual 'I want this to be done, I'll leave it to the devs to figure out the logistics themselves'. I spent the last two nights coming up with ideas on what could be done with current Bard, and that's a lot easier on the developers than what some of you are proposing. And yet it still requires a ton of thought.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5167612
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post5168653

Challenge accepted, see you in a few hours.

Good to know you don't see it. But bard, using bows and instruments crafted as bows is one of the things that appeals to people in this game. And after this game has established much of its content as its design and being a game that likes to "bring back the themes that are popular in Final Fantasy" its difficult to be partisan with you when you want one thing, regardless of what its lost in the process.

What frustrates me about this statement is that it kinda sounds like this: "Wow, so you really can't see the resemblance to Edward? Well there are resemblances, but instead of explaining them to defend my point and show you what your'e missing, I'm just going to reiterate that people like a bow that is also a harp." Which by the way is only true for a handful of artifact weapons. Not all artifact weapons, just a few. 95% percent of bows are literally just bows.

I agree that it would've been a very interesting way to bridge the two archetypes... if it actually influenced anything about Bard's abilities and identity instead of just be a mild cosmetic attachment.

[Mahrze]

I agree that it would've been a very interesting way to bridge the two archetypes... if it actually influenced anything about Bard's abilities and identity instead of just be a mild cosmetic attachment.

Well, the attachment is what adds more complexity to BRD than it would be as a Ranger. It at this point has most if not all the abilities it could get as a ranger, with the bonus now being the harp you seem to not like, as its not integrated to the job identity/archetype instead of some cosmetic fanservice.


Unless you'd rather see them add "animals/critters" to support them because then it would definitely not tread on MCH/SMN territory with pets. And we know how they 'love' pets.

[ty_taurus]

Or we can make BRD more BRD-like, returning musical elements to its Archer-Bard hybrid nature, and give those who want Ranger a Ranger job worthy of the name. Your suggestion here will produce nothing more than threads like this, except the argument will be “why the fresh heck is a Ranger playing songs”.

Why the fresh heck is Bard shooting arrows? I feel like there's a double standard at play here where having an Archer who maybe sings a song on occasion is something we've established is what many of you posting here want to retain, but it's not okay for us to include an instrument wielding job disconnected from Bard entirely for the players who want a musical job.

Well, the attachment is what adds more complexity to BRD than it would be as a Ranger. It at this point has most if not all the abilities it could get as a ranger, with the bonus now being the harp you seem to not like, as its not integrated to the job identity/archetype instead of some cosmetic fanservice.


Unless you'd rather see them add "animals/critters" to support them because then it would definitely not tread on MCH/SMN territory with pets. And we know how they 'love' pets.

Wait, how does a glorified Christmas Ornament that hangs form like 5 bows in the game and does literally nothing else add more complexity to Bard?

[Mahrze]

Wait, how does a glorified Christmas Ornament that hangs form like 5 bows in the game and does literally nothing else add more complexity to Bard?

Aight, I'll bite.

You're not mistaken that for all intents and purposes. A BRD right now has very little things to do in terms of stepping into either being a "Bard in the whole sense" or be a "True Archer/Ranger who uses the bow like a bowman should", this is stemming from making more generic comparisons about the archetypes of both "jobs".

However, BRD as it stands already checks the boxes of both "archetypes" rather well without them having to be super interwoven and show some form of artistic synergy.
Would I like for abilities to be more "in theme" with notes and other music things to really make BRD shine as a musically themed job? Yes, yes I would.
Do I have realistic expectations and know that this may not if ever happen? Yes, yes I do.
Would I like this in lieu of the lack of weapons and other items that seem like they are tacked on and offer little to no distinguishable feature/requirement for their performance? I think you see the pattern here.

The way they took Archer which was a simplified Ranger in the early days of the game and chose Bard instead of a Ranger because they had their reasons to (whichever those are) doesn't take away that this job which has plenty of potential in its design is better off built on and improved on said design than saying "screw it, make two jobs and let any and all shenanigans be dealt with in due time".

Not invalidating your desire, but I am not subscribed to "I want this to be a thing with what I have and you guys who are attaching this other thing to what I want should get another thing that makes your thing separate from mine, regardless of what comes and goes from it".


Now, I do have complaints with how SE likes to make mutually exclusive both being the new kid on the block and said new kid needs to have all the tools. Bard and Dancer shouldn't be at odds as to who gives what. They can each give out something as support to their teams. And the fact that songs get gutted in some form for the sake of letting the new kid shine with dances is a bit annoying to say the least.


A bard could easily offer support without causing a double dip with a dancer in the group. Even more so when DNC mostly buffs only one player with 0 downtime.

[MartaDemireux]

(Hyomin and I have both cleared UwU as Bards as well, I'm fairly sure the developers are more inclined to listen to people who are actually passionate about the class, over someone from the outside that wants to gut it.)

This is unrelated and uncalled for. SE takes feedback from its entire userbase equally, and have even stated as much in the past. There is no reason to try and belittle someone or their ideas whether or not you have cleared UwU or anything else for that matter. You can be just as passionate about a job as someone else no matter if you clear endgame raids or stick to dungeons. Clearing endgame does not give you the right to call someone an outsider.

[HyoMinPark]

This is unrelated and uncalled for. SE takes feedback from its entire userbase equally, and have even stated as much in the past. There is no reason to try and belittle someone or their ideas whether or not you have cleared UwU or anything else for that matter. You can be just as passionate about a job as someone else no matter if you clear endgame raids or stick to dungeons. Clearing endgame does not give you the right to call someone an outsider.

I think the point of this quip was to point out that some of us have mained and played this job for years. Whereas there are people making suggestions to change Bard to Ranger that haven’t played the job or who decided to pick it up this expansion because now it’s closer to what they want; otherwise, they’ve ignored it through its best and its worst. However, it’s suddenly crucial that they get their ideal job, and screw those who want Bard to return to being a Bard, I guess. That’s the impression I’ve gotten from posters, anyways: in this thread and a few others.

[MartaDemireux]

I think the point of this quip was to point out that some of us have mained and played this job for years. Whereas there are people making suggestions to change Bard to Ranger that haven’t played the job or who decided to pick it up this expansion because now it’s closer to what they want; otherwise, they’ve ignored it through its best and its worst. However, it’s suddenly crucial that they get their ideal job, and screw those who want Bard to return to being a Bard, I guess. That’s the impression I’ve gotten from posters, anyways: in this thread and a few others.

It makes little difference. There are people who have been playing BRD since its incarnation in 1.x that haven't even attempted endgame just as there are people who clear endgame in the same year that they join.

Passion is completely unrelated to endgame progress and it was a very elitist way to try and insult someone and insinuate they are more passionate than another which is immeasurable.

When it comes to job flavor, no opinion is more valuable than another. When it comes to raiding balance, then their opinion may be more valuable in terms of that specifically. But last I checked, that isn't what this is about.