Idiot tanks or am I just bad at healing? :P

[Rilifane]

As a tank main, the game is a bit frustrating right now.

I'm okay with having extra responsabilities due to my role, what I'm not okay with is people that don't give a f*** about THEIR OWN responsabilities.

Tanks have to lead the way and set a pace that feels good for everyone, keep aggro, gather the mobs so DPS can do their thing properly, use mitigation so healer doesn't lose his hair, all this after evaluating the capabilities of the whole party. And also do as much DPS as possible.

Healers only have to heal and Esuna from time to time, if there is room for DPS, go for it.

DPS only have to make things die quick which should come natural if they know the rotation.


Now the problem is, if healer isn't doing his job because he's DPSing or doesn't know how to play the job, the tank gets the blame and they will tell you to pull less.

If the DPS are not doing a proper rotation and enemies take forever to die, tank will run out of defensives and die, then he'll get blamed again. Oh, and you can even get banned if you tell them you use a DPS metter...

If the tank doesn't use defensives properly, pulls little or too much, doesn't gather the mobs together or moves around messing up melee positionals, he get the blane again (with a reason this time).



TL;DR: Doesn't matter who you are or what you do, it's always the tanks fault.

That's one hell of a double standard.

If you break down the healer's responsibility to "heal and Esuna from time to time" with everything else being optional, you can also break down the tanks responsibility to "pull as much as you're comfortable with and keep the mobs from whacking the party" with everything else being optional.
No matter which role you play, of course you should use your CDs appropriately, be it dps boosts, oGCD heals/ mitigation/ party buffs or def CDs.

If you're keen on making everything about tanks, let me turn the tables for a moment and make everything about healers:

Healers are expected to know damage patterns and recognize tank busters by name, recognize actually detrimental debuffs right away, keep the party alive and heal them even through failed mechanics or poor CD timing, manage their MP so they can always raise someone who died, use their oGCDs properly to free up to dps and dps as much as possible.
If they die from something, even it wasn't their fault, it will likely result in a wipe and they get blamed. If the tank can't pull as big as he wants, they get blamed. If the tank doesn't use his CDs properly, the healer is expected to heal it and gets blamed if he can't. If the dps is low and mobs don't die before the healer runs out of oGCDs and maybe even MP, the healer gets blamed. If a dps eats a mechanic and dies from it or has to wait longer to get healed, healer gets blamed. If a healer isn't able to carry the group through fails it's seen as a failure on their part.
Tanks just have to stand there and get whacked and dps just have to stand there and whack things.
Sounds one sided?
Precisely.

It's a bonus if the tank already knows the dungeon well enough to lead the way and knows trigger points for mob spawns. Just as it is a bonus if the healer knows all damage patterns by name and intensity.
But dungeons are so liniar that it's basically just going where something is still alive and simply being the first one to throw something in the mobs face isn't rocket science.
And though you'll likely heal less efficient if you don't know the damage patterns, reacting to them after it happened is fine. You may start to panic heal a bit if the group drops and you don't know the next aoe is still 20sec away but it's not the end of the world.

I think you're just making things harder for yourself by thinking everything is about you because you're the tank. It's not. Take a step back instead of thinking the whole responsibility for a nice, clean run falls on your shoulders alone.

[Marc-Vigar]

snip.

Healers don't have to worry about aggro, don't have to lead the party, don't have to worry about positioning enemies, don't cause wipes if they don't use cooldowns and no one is gonna blame them if they can't do damage because incoming damage is high. If a DPS stands in AoE and dies no one is gonna blame the healer, and I've NEVER seen a healer anticipating a tank buster.

Look at it this way, in football tanks would be goalkeepers, if you make a mistake the team is f***ed and you get all the blame. Healers would be defense/midfielders, their job is to make everyone else able work. DPS of course would be forwards, they fail a lot but no one is gonna blame them.

As I said earlier, I don't mind the responsability, but I'm definitely not letting bad healers and DPS blame me for their own mistakes. DPS are babies, healers are babysitters and tanks are babysitters of the babysitters.

Fortunately I have all roles and jobs at high level so I know the ins and outs of each one. I can see you only have healer and DPS job at high level, yet you said "Tanks just have to stand there and get whacked" go ahead and try yourself, then you'll realise mine was not a one sided criticism.

[Rilifane]

Healers don't have to worry about aggro

Obviously not, because that is the tanks basic responsibility.
Tanks don't have to worry about keeping the party alive, because that is the healers basic responsibility. I hope you get what I'm trying to say because I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

don't have to lead the party

Nor does the tank. The tank is, or rather should, be the first one to whack a mob in the face. That doesn't equal leading as in "knowing the ins and outs of a dungeon and explaining mechanics as neccessary" or something like that. Whoever knows the dungeon best can easily lead. You don't have to walk ahead to actually lead, you can lead from the back seat easily. Try it, it's really easy.
Something I have done plenty of times with tanks being new in a dungeon.

don't have to worry about positioning enemies

Again, tanks basic responsibility. In theory you can make it sound really complicated and difficult, in practise you tap all the mobs, turn them away from the party and see that they're mostly standing in the same spot and you're good. If an aoe targets you, you move out and then back in.
It's the same as healers having to worry about positioning themselves correctly to hit everything with their aoe heals or placing ground target heals correctly. Basic responsibility.

don't cause wipes if they don't use cooldowns and no one is gonna blame them if they can't do damage because incoming damage is high. If a DPS stands in AoE and dies no one is gonna blame the healer

There are only VERY few things that one-shot you if you don't use a CD to lower the damage to a level where it won't kill you and if that is the case you can be absolutely sure that the healers HAVE to anticipate that skill to shield you aswell and use their skills correctly or it may cause a wipe because that's savage level. And I hope you won't try to tell me that it doesn't matter how a healer heals in savage. Or that it doesn't matter if a dps is only doing decent dps instead of maximizing.
You don't wipe on normal DF content because you didn't pop rampart. You take more damage and the healer may get a heart attack but if even IF you die, they can just Swiftcast Raise you.
And if we're talking about big pulls where the damage is so intense that you'd get thrashed to death if you don't use a CD then you can be sure you'd be just as dead if the healers doesn't use their oGCDs .
Thinking it's only your skill use that makes or breaks the game if shit hits the fan is a, again, a huge double standard.

I've NEVER seen a healer anticipating a tank buster

I did, plenty of times. The have names and castbars, so you can use those 2sec+ to shield the tank. Just yesterday my co-healer, SCH, pre-shielded every single tankbuster like a clockwork on Levi. There are definitely enough healers out there who do it. Not everyone does it in DF and if the group is overall so good that it seems like an unncessary hassle and and simply healing through it is more efficient, they won't do it, obviously. But generally pre-shielding tankbusters is something I see frequently.

Look at it this way, in football tanks would be goalkeepers, if you make a mistake the team is f***ed and you get all the blame. Healers would be defense/midfielders, their job is to make everyone else able work. DPS of course would be forwards, they fail a lot but no one is gonna blame them

You're trying really hard to scramble for examples that make the tank look like the most important person in a party with the most responsibility whose decisions make or break a run. But for someone who apparently has that much experience with all the roles, you should know better by now.

As I said earlier, I don't mind the responsability, but I'm definitely not letting bad healers and DPS blame me for their own mistakes. DPS are babies, healers are babysitters and tanks are babysitters of the babysitters

This whole thing sounds more like you think of yourself as the one who needs to lead all the dumb little kids safely through rush hour traffic. You don't. Escpecially not DF content.

Fortunately I have all roles and jobs at high level so I know the ins and outs of each one. I can see you only have healer and DPS job at high level, yet you said "Tanks just have to stand there and get whacked" go ahead and try yourself, then you'll realise mine was not a one sided criticism.

I have tanked, healed and dpsed in every MMO I played, even played MT in raids for years. So I do know what's up. This also extends to FF14 where I have tanked. This isn't my first nor only char, just so you know.
You completely missed (or purposely ignored) my point: I never said that tanking was IN FACT just standing there and getting whacked.
I was trying to point out your huge double standard regarding responsibility because you made quite the show of listing every tiny thing you think a tank absolutely NEEDS to do while only mentioning the absolute basics for the other two roles.
That's called a double standard and it's simply not true. Hence why I equalled "healers just heal and sometimes Esuna" with "tanks just pick up mobs and hold aggro".
You can, in fact, get away with just standing in the mob group, keeping aggro (which has gotten ridicously easy with ShB) and let yourself get whacked.
Just like you can, in fact, get away as a healer with just sticking to your basic spells and only using oGCDs every now and then and not dps. Because in both cases, you have technically fulfilled your basic responsibility.

Howevery everything beyond that is greatly appreciated and makes a run smoother and faster. Any form of maximizing efficiency is most welcome but doing so puts responsibility on everyone.
I'm not saying tanks are the easiest role to play or not important or anything. I'm just pointing out that both of your posts are full of double standards you don't even seem to realize.
Maybe you simply play your healers differently than your tanks and generally put much more effort into tanking, maybe you just had several bad encounters as a tank while good encounters as a healer or maybe you're simply frustrated because someone recently blamed you for something.

But one thing I can say with absolute certainty is, that healers get blamed often enough for things out of their control. Just because you are that one lucky guy in the universe that has NEVER experienced this doesn't make it the universal truth.

[Gorb_McNasty]

Well , Tried dungeon again today and we breezed it first time... So i'll say tank was an arse then :P
(But i still need practice :P)

[Marc-Vigar]

It seems you are the one experiencing bad tanks. Tanks and DPS DO have to worry about the party, that's why we have things like Cover, Reprisal, Dark Missionary and other party mitigation cooldowns, it's not healer exclusive, unlike the other things I mentioned which are tank exclusive.

You keep talking about "tank's basic responsability", and that's exactly what I was saying earlier, we have responsabilities that other roles don't but people like you try to make feel like that doesn't exist at all. It is true that sometimes other members of the party can make a step ahead if the tank is new to the instance, but in most cases the tank is expected to lead and know everything, while others don't have such expectations.

You DO wipe in DF, maybe not in a lvl 50 dungeons because those are undertuned, but you can easily die on a lvl 60 or 70 if someone is distracted.

You say you can anticipate tank busters, in my experience I've never seen that happen so I'll leave this matter on the limbo until proven otherwise.

Tanks are indeed the most important member of the party, with healers really close to them. This doesn't mean we are superior or anything like that, but a good or a bad run depends heavily on both roles. A good tank can carry bad DPS and healer, the same way a good healer can carry a bad tank and DPS. DPS on the other hand can't carry no one.

I said it before and I'm gonna say it again, DPS are babies, healers are babysitters and tanks are babysitters of the babysitters.


Unfortunately I've had bad experiences with all roles, tank being the worst by far. I personally never saw anyone but the tank blaming a healer and most of the time for the same reason, DPSing instead of healing.

Also, how do you quote multiple things on the same post?

[Dioltas]

When I play tank, I'm the most important damn member of the party!
When I play healer, I'm the most important damn member of the party!
When I play dps, well... who cares. Dps are derp derp derp.

It's all about perspective. No one else other than me cares about how I popped that CD just in time to mitigate that tankbuster, dodge that aoe and maximise dps output during a dungeon because no one really cares that much. I care because it keeps the dungeon from becoming a total borefest and sometimes it looks cool (try playing a dungeon with no UI, it's actually kinda cool )... but as long as the team finishes a dungeon in approx 20 mins it's a win and everyone goes home happy.

Marc Vigar, most of your examples don't matter for shit outside of Savage content. In savage, healers need to be pre casting shields at every opportunity and be casting during tankbuster cast bars to land heals right after the tanks hp drops. It's called good healing and it's quite common, you won't see that in DF cause DF, regular dungeons are snoozefests in comparison.

[E4EO]

The problem with the tank is that he assumed you could handle huge pulls and that was his fault. Some healers can't handle big pulls because they're new healers, rusty from not playing healer in awhile, haven't figured out the controls fully yet, haven't figured out how all the skills work and where they ate supposed to be used, or some far out reasoning like a disability that prevents them from playing as good as normal people.

Its always best to do small pulls as a tank because you don't know the ability of the healer, and asking them if you can do big pulls sounds belittling to the healer because it sounds like you're assuming they're not good enough to handle big pulls and they need to ask. You could try to phrase it in a way that doesn't sound belittling by phrasing in way that goes, "I'm sorry if this sounds belittling to you, but can I please make big pulls? although I'm not sure every healer would react positively to that either.

The better option is a healer (you) should absolutely ask for a certain type of pull because healers decide how big pulls can be, not by picking up the mobs like the tank, but by sustaining the tank through the pulls. So if you're feeling confident or unconfident say in chat that you aren't or are feeling it. If the tank ignores you he'll have to suffer getting killed, be forced to make small pulls, or in the case where you get kicked or leave because of the attitude of the group, sit and wait for minutes for another healer.

[Marc-Vigar]

When I play tank, I'm the most important damn member of the party!
When I play healer, I'm the most important damn member of the party!
When I play dps, well... who cares. Dps are derp derp derp.

It's all about perspective. No one else other than me cares about how I popped that CD just in time to mitigate that tankbuster, dodge that aoe and maximise dps output during a dungeon because no one really cares that much. I care because it keeps the dungeon from becoming a total borefest and sometimes it looks cool (try playing a dungeon with no UI, it's actually kinda cool )... but as long as the team finishes a dungeon in approx 20 mins it's a win and everyone goes home happy.

Marc Vigar, most of your examples don't matter for shit outside of Savage content. In savage, healers need to be pre casting shields at every opportunity and be casting during tankbuster cast bars to land heals right after the tanks hp drops. It's called good healing and it's quite common, you won't see that in DF cause DF, regular dungeons are snoozefests in comparison.

I never liked this "pfff whatever man this isn't savage" mentality to justify being mediocre.

The same way I don't care if no one notices whether I popped a defensive cooldown perfectly or not,. But I DO care and I don"t enjoy when the healer or DPS aren't even trying to do his job because that forces me to overwork if I don't want the dungeon to become a 30 min nightmare.

[Dioltas]

Pushing your class to the limit is required for progression stage savage. It is not required for regular dungeons. Pre casting shields is usually counter productive in a regular dungeon as it takes away a gcd where a lustra/exco would fill that gap much better. Precasting shields is required when the mechanic could potentially one shot the tank, which is 99.9% not gonna happen in df. Hence my attitude towards non savage content. It's not meant to be arrogant, it's just how the game content is tuned.

[Marc-Vigar]

Pushing your class to the limit is required for progression stage savage. It is not required for regular dungeons. Pre casting shields is usually counter productive in a regular dungeon as it takes away a gcd where a lustra/exco would fill that gap much better. Precasting shields is required when the mechanic could potentially one shot the tank, which is 99.9% not gonna happen in df. Hence my attitude towards non savage content. It's not meant to be arrogant, it's just how the game content is tuned.

Pre casting shields in between pulls is a healthy habit no matter what content you do, not only helps the tank to pull safer but also is a win-win situation because you lose nothing for casting a shield while running to the next pack/boss.

Your attitude is precisely what I'm agains't, that we aren't doing the hardest content in the game doesn't mean we have to spend 5-15 extra minutes because people are behaving like idiots or just don't care. If you are bad but you are trying I won't complain, but if you are just a lazy ass then I will try to get you out of my party.

And yes, people with your same thoughts are usually arrogant and doesn't take much to make them spit insults, so it's easy to kick them.