[Spoilers] Why Zenos is the most important character moving forward

[GenericMagus]

snip

But that's the same thing as us. While we earned the power, we're still given the Echo and Blessing of Light from up high, we didn't earn it until we had one turned off by Migardsomr to say that we earned it, but we're still given it at the start to stand high above all instead of earning it.

Zenos as a character can be seen as a dark reflection to me for players who deem their characters as only caring about the fight, only looking forward to the challenges and that itself can be portrayed in the story itself. We may just be like Zenos going from one Primal to another just because it's fun to them, and wanting more and more exciting challenges.

Zenos has an extremely warped view of the world, more like a serial killer who has no empathy, not caring about anything apart from the hunt. What about us and some WoL, who have no care for politics, right or wrong, who ger tired of fighting Primals and other strong beings and deem them too easy?

About the body hop, he did die after the battle for Ala Mhigo, and he existed in a state just like the Sahagin Priest or an Ascian. He used the Resonant to hop from one body to another, to claw his way back to Garlemead and to retrieve his body back after an Ascian took it, restoring it back to a living state. The body hop is to show his determination and how deadly he is without his body, as he easily wipes out anyone who he comes near. Doesn't matter friend, foe, none of that matters till he achieves his ambition. That's the point of the body hop, to show Zenos and how he's consumed for his bloodlust to fight the WoL, and how even his own people matter not for him, and his strength as he fights his way back to Garlemead.

[EdwinLi]

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I think with Zodiark and Hydaelyn gone in a Season 2 storyline may remove that strength that made WoL so strong.

Many reason that can happen such as the change in Law of the new world without Zodiark and Hydaelyn, loss of power due to sacrificing all of it to defeat the Finale boss, and etc.

The only question remains would be what may become our new source of power in Season 2 for this new Journey against a new long term antagonist.

[Alleluia]

Yes, he's a serial killer with no empathy. I've been aware of that the whole time. That, in and of itself, isn't interesting. He's stuck in constant ennui. He's Baldur from God of War, but with no flair. Bullseye from Daredevil, without the attempt at at least pretending to be an empathetic human. As a character, I don't hate our stalker. I just don't find him all that compelling, either.

Zenos has seemingly learned nothing from his body hopping adventure and that is disappointing to me. I thought he'd grow a more nuanced personality from the experience. Maybe he will in the future and they just haven't shown it, yet, but I have my doubts.

Will he be important in the future? Obviously. Is it right to say statements like "two sides of the same coin" with regards to him and WoL? No. It was never accurate, really. (Especially for healer mains, but ignoring that bit of story/gameplay segregation...) As he's written, with his inability to change his perspective even when he is literally inhabiting other bodies, its clear that Zenos' issues are not nurture. He did not end up like this b/c of his circumstances. He has something fundamentally wrong with his nature, as demonstrated by him going thru all of this body hopping and still coming out exactly the same as he went in. The lack of empathy is ingrained in him, a part of his makeup and who he is. The WoL has *never* had that problem and never would. Zenos is not a case of "but for the grace of God go I" for the WoL b/c they are fundamentally different. So this whole foil thing just turns into the villain claiming "we are not so different" when its provably not the case.

[ChaoticCrimson]

As a character, I still don't know what to think of Zenos, particularly since he may yet be touched on more as the 5.X patches continue. But I'm rather more interested in the implications of his continued involvement. The Ascians created the Garlean Empire in an effort to sow chaos, but the thing with chaos is that it's unpredictable and uncontrollable. Zenos is a product of that chaos, and now its come back to haunt Elidibus. Whether Zenos remains bland as a character or not, I'm intrigued by the fact that there's really no telling what he'll do next, and how it will affect the story. Even if the chances are good we'll probably fight him at least once more, I doubt even that's a guarantee, or at the very least not as the WoL/D. Perhaps Gaius will indeed be the one to finish him, to put to rest the hateful legacy of Garlemald as it's been until now, and to pave the way for a new future for the Empire. I honestly couldn't say with any certainty what will happen. I will say that Zenos' ability to possess primals and the recent revelation that Zodiark and Hydaelyn are elder primals does yield some interesting possibilities, but I'm not so sure it will actually go that far. Who's to say until we get to the end, though?

[Bright-Flower]

So far Zenos, at least from my perspective, hasn't actually done anything unexpected other than not staying dead in 4.0. He certainly wasn't an unexpected wild card in 4.0. In 5.0 he did exactly what I expected him to with the only surprise being how fast and easily he managed it.

He 'could' end up becoming a wild card later, but so far he has not earned that title, not from an out of story perspective anyway.

[Jaywalker]

The problem with Zenos is that we never see him earn his power. It is effectively a form of Diabolus ex Machina, the counterpart to the Warrior of Light's Deus ex Machina (blessing of light) which are tropes of bad writing. If Zenos has all this power because the writer says so, and the Warrior of Light has all this power because the writer says so, then we're effectively entered a story equivalent to a 5 year old banging hero/villain figures together.

In fairness, there is at least one short story about young Zenos training under a non-Garlean who could wield aether and going to increasingly extreme lengths to win. Can try and refind it.

I kind of have mixed feelings about lore not being shown in the game itself so I do get you there, but for what it's worth there is canon material covering him earning his strength.

I also saw a thing recently reviewing floor plans in I thiiiink Castrum Abania (need to double check) that might be implying some kind of weird experiment was done on Zenos with trying to combine souls. It's not super clear, but I suspect we'll get an explanation at some point.

No, he is not our antithesis. If the WoL gave into bloodlust and might-makes-right, at the very least the WoL worked for it from the ground up and earned that might through countless trials and tribulations. Zenos also has no arc. He became the strongest villain without sacrifice or confronting any personal demons, his character has remained static the entire time.

I agree and disagree here haha. I agree that WoL going "might makes right" would not become Zenos. If anything, he'd become Gaius. I don't think right even enters the equation for Zenos. Morality is irrelevant for him. If we are going to go into antitheses (which he is, but Zenos is hardly the only antithesis) the way Zenos foils the Warrior of Light comes from the ability to connect with and draw strength from others versus an entirely selfish and isolated strength. One involves being nurtured into power through connection, the other treats others as fuel.

Frankly, I could compose a whole analysis on why Vauthry is the antithesis of WoL/D, and particularly plays off of themes involving Fray and Sephirot. You can have more than one character doing this sort of thing. It's pretty standard if the storytelling is good.

TV tropes is for superficial craft elements in storytelling and does not reflect good or bad storytelling on a structural level in any consistent way. Most of what I'm typing here is purely shooting the shit with fellow fans, but on this one point in particular seriously. It's actually a pretty big craft problem in writing right now that people keep latching onto surface elements without necessarily knowing underlying reasons for why something does or doesn't work. It's the difference between say, a top tier mangaka who has studied everything from anatomy to paneling to graphic design and so forth versus an amateur who tries to copy the mangaka without understanding those things at all and just sees "big eyes".

Having a character as a chosen one or with a remarkable ability, whether good or bad, doesn't automatically become bad storytelling. The Echo occurs within worldbuilding, isn't exclusive to one person, and comes with costs. The WoL has been incapacitated by it multiple times, Fordola who couldn't turn it off got hit worse. Zenos operates the same way a good chunk of real life people do and even the concept of him artificially implanting something that would put him in another person's point of view is crazy unpredictable and kind of revolutionary. We have no idea what this will do long-term for Zenos' character development.

Not every character needs to be driven by angst and personal demons. This includes villains. I'm saying this as someone who loves angst, personal demons, and villains. I'll even go a step further--there are ways to tell stories where characters remain static and the drama comes from seeing how they impact those around them. There are even ways to tell stories with no conflict at all, and the most prominently successful cases of this method come from Japan.

Zenos undergoes an arc from being directionless and desperately seeking purpose for himself to finding that purpose in an opponent capable of overcoming him. Someone who can truly challenge him and make him strive. He went from valuing no one to valuing someone for the role they fulfill in his life. It's a very, very simple arc, which fits with the fact that he has huge elements of human identity missing from his personal development. This is not missing in the sense of "writers couldn't be bothered to fill it in" but in the sense of "some people lack the ability to conceptualize X and have to fill and adapt to that in other ways".

I do suspect we'll see Zenos get confronted with humanity at some point. He probably won't understand it or will find it unpleasant. Frankly, while I do get the critiques people mentioned on wanting to see him react more to having an artificial Echo and body hopping--I think that's a combination of not wanting to disrupt pacing for the story of the First and needing to really hammer home who Zenos is, how he operates, and how he doesn't operate. Varis accusing him of being a spoiled princeling who couldn't handle the responsibility of a nation only for Zenos to turn around all "I really don't care but if you use Black Rose my hunt is over" is a big deal. There have been tons of people who until that point had been looking at Zenos as if he was a prince above all else and kept trying to push standard evil prince motives on him. It was a point that needed to be clarified more explicitly, and it was there.

And with all this, seriously no one's gotta personally like Zenos but being a kind of character you don't prefer doesn't make him a technically ineffective character. Liking or disliking something is totally divorced from whether that thing is good craftsmanship. He's actually within a character type that is rarely done well and the level that the team has managed to do this consistently right is a very rare exception in media.

Tone with the internet doesn't always translate great, so tryin' to be clear here--not fussing, no shade from me against players who hate Zenos. Zenos is gonna be whatever he'll be and it's normal for fans to just plain not like some characters. There are apparently people who think the guy's hot too, which I find kind of funny. Me chiming in is more because on a technical front the team really isn't dropping the ball with him and has been doing a solid job pretty consistently. I just think it's important to recognize that the devs aren't being incompetent or lazy or anything like that. Have had plenty of experience with actual incompetent, lazy storytellers and the difference here is staggering.

All this stuff they're doing is coming from a very meticulous and deliberate place. If this isn't your favorite kind of character, don't worry there'll be others and he won't be in the spotlight forever. I just think it's important to give a little respect to the devs here, same way I'd give respect to say Bladerunner even though I can't seem to sit through it lol.

[kidalutz]

You honestly know what would make my day?

if when the story continued we got a cut scene with Gaius just lopping off Zenos head completely so we were through and done with the most overwhelming one dimensional villain since the Emperor of Final Fantasy II Hrrm... wait maybe thats it Everyone pull out your blood swords..

[Dualblade]

My only real contribution here is to about some of SE's words on Zenos. Before SB they said they wanted to make an enemy we couldn't sympathize with unlike what happened with Gaius. At the end of 4.0 a lot of people thought SE somewhat failed since Zenos did have enough to be somewhat sympathetic due to his upbringing essentially being what turned him into what he is.

Then it turned out he ended up body hopping by accident and now in 5.0 has killed his father all for his own selfish desire, which isn't even anything to do with taking the throne as a lot of people thought he might try for if only for resources. So it seems SE is still going for that "not supposed to feel sympathy" direction with him.

Whether or not that leads to people still thinking he's a good character is, of course, up to interpretation. But it means he isn't going to be getting the Emet-Selch treatment.

[Alleluia]

My only real contribution here is to about some of SE's words on Zenos. Before SB they said they wanted to make an enemy we couldn't sympathize with unlike what happened with Gaius. At the end of 4.0 a lot of people thought SE somewhat failed since Zenos did have enough to be somewhat sympathetic due to his upbringing essentially being what turned him into what he is.

Then it turned out he ended up body hopping by accident and now in 5.0 has killed his father all for his own selfish desire, which isn't even anything to do with taking the throne as a lot of people thought he might try for if only for resources. So it seems SE is still going for that "not supposed to feel sympathy" direction with him.

Whether or not that leads to people still thinking he's a good character is, of course, up to interpretation. But it means he isn't going to be getting the Emet-Selch treatment.

Oh. Well. Mission accomplished, then, far as I'm concerned. lol

[Nalien]

3. He is truly our perfect antithesis.

I'd take this a step further. I always took his interest in the thrill of the hunt to be a cold reflection of us; not our characters, but us.

That is, after all, a large reason why many play the game to begin with... They wait patch by patch for bigger, more thrilling content to throw themselves at... We revel in the hunt just as much as he does, I'm sure our characters don't want bigger and badder villains to face off against, but we not only want it, we expect it - it's a given that every patch will have a new Trial, a new Raid, a new challenge, a new hunt...

And hell, if he is uncaring for the plight of people... Uninteresting in them in general... What about us? This is literally a game to us, and the characters in it no more than that... They're just pieces to frame our hunt, and at any point we can just log off and walk away from their dire circumstance for any number of days... The same way Zenos just... Gets bored and walks away from Rhalgr's Reach... It simply wasn't important to him, lore wise it should have been a defining victory for the Empire, but he simply didn't care... Likewise, did I really care about the plight of the First? I can certainly tell myself I did, and it was certainly an interesting story, but that's all it ultimately is to me, right? Ran'jit might be hot on our heels, but I need to go to sleep, then to work, then who knows if I'll even play when I get home?

Really, the only difference between us is that, when I get bored and walk away for whatever reason, time effectively stops. Every urgent event in game is on hold until I continue the MSQ. When Zenos does that same? The Alliance gains ground, we grow stronger, the Empire is pushed back.