Revelations from the Shadowbringers E3 Trailer

[Yuyuka3]

Well seems based on this Solus isn't blowing smoke on the primal business. I find it amusing how Yoshi-p considers this minor info compared to everything else they will show. Also seems 5.0 will finish up 80% of this arc.

It also makes me wonder what else will be revealed in this patch if this is considered 'minor info'... I mean, sure, people suspected as much for ages now, and I remember talking to a friend about this possibility about 4 years ago already, but having it confirmed is a totally different beast than just suspecting something, and learning this from a trailer because it's 'minor information'... I now expect one hell of an expansion.

[RopeDrink]

Then will the 5.x series finish that last 20% or would they save it for 6.x/7.x?

Nothing new. Almost all MMORPGs will lace expansions with breadcrumbs to keep the story ticking forward -- see WoD's in HSW which had little to no relevance to Stormblood, yet became extremely relevant as soon as people realized that whole story-arc was essentially a prelude to ShB. Right now I see Black Rose as a breadcrumb-instigator to fluffing up the story on the Source once the First has been (mostly) dealt with, as well as Varis grand master-race-plans. We will no doubt be given some glimpses into those via Gaius and Estinien during ShB as a sort of 'meanwhile, back on the source' story-telling, but it won't be at the forefront while we're on a completely different shard doing other important things. Same can be said for the 'small information' (re. revelation) that was fed to us in the E3 trailer. It was/was not a surprise to (insert relevant party here), yet the implications can be stretched into expansion material down the road. We'll no doubt have a big chunk of 'balance' related shenanigans this expansion, but a question like Hyde/Zodi being primals won't be at the fore-front for a while.

In short, expect to get answers for about 70-80% of an expansion - during that expansion - but do not expect all answers until the next one. It doesn't do well to have your customers think that a game/story has been quite literally wrapped up 100% and leaving nothing to speculate, theory craft or debate about as a result.

[Theodric]

Well seems based on this Solus isn't blowing smoke on the primal business. I find it amusing how Yoshi-p considers this minor info compared to everything else they will show. Also seems 5.0 will finish up 80% of this arc.

Interesting. From the interview:

'The "fat man" who shows up in the middle of the trailer is the head/leader of Eulmore and he cannot say if we'll be fighting him or not, but the fat man was provoking us and he would like players to speculate if he's really just a friend of the sin eaters or being controlled by someone.'

Perhaps Innocence is the one controlling him?

[myahele]

It looks like the cave where we see the murals will be in a dungeon. It also looks like it's underneath the Alaggan-like (or is it really Alaggan?) civilization ruins. Didn't they say Ronka was the technologically advanced ancient civilization of the 1st?



What I find most interesting about the mural in the new image is the burning city. At 1st I thought the top part were either ember from the flames or floating island. But it looks like meteors; could it be that's how this civilization ended?

[Cilia]

I get the "Light is Not Good" and "Dark is Not Evil" shtick they're going with here - really, I do, and I also don't feel the whole "Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals" bit is as game-changing as it could be (it changes nothing in the long run).

My contention is with the statement that we're causing an imbalance because we're "the Champion of the Light" and it'll lead to a catastrophe... while never saying what we should or even could be doing differently. The PC is heroic - so their heroic exploits are to be expected. But how are their exploits causing an imbalance? By way of Hydaelyn's gifts? If Hydaelyn has no power over the Darkness, how are we supposed to harness it to combat the unique threats facing the First - and if Darkness is Zodiark's domain, wouldn't that give him a way to influence us as well?

"Win or lose, the path you walk leads only to oblivion." Somebody get not-G'raha to get us out of this Catch-22...

Ahem.

The Shadowbringers arc will likely be wrapped up in 5.3, as was the case for Heavensward and Stormblood (ending with the Nidhogg / Tsukuyomi fights in 3.3 / 4.3, respectively).

[Anonymoose]

Kinda splicing in some thoughts from the Have the Ascians Ever Lied, how is this revelation supposed to devastate our affiliation with Hydaelyn while the Ascians are still so pro-Zodiark, if they're both just primals? What makes Him the one true god, then? It's interesting to notice that the mural appears to go left to right in chronological order. Going backwards, that means the final state is Hydaelyn with two halos... and then before that is Hydaelyn and Zodiark with one halo each... and then there's Zodiark with two halos? What does THAT mean?

Is it a hint that Zodiark actually came first and that's what all the hubbub is about? Or is it merely a visualization of Zodiark in the same power-position as Hydaelyn is at the end of the story? Or is this supposed to be a combined Hydaelyn/Zodiark entity and the two-halo Hydaelyn at the end of something else?

What's everyone's thoughts on that?

[EdwinLi]

I get the "Light is Not Good" and "Dark is Not Evil" shtick they're going with here - really, I do, and I also don't feel the whole "Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals" bit is as game-changing as it could be (it changes nothing in the long run).

My contention is with the statement that we're causing an imbalance because we're "the Champion of the Light" and it'll lead to a catastrophe... while never saying what we should or even could be doing differently. The PC is heroic - so their heroic exploits are to be expected. But how are their exploits causing an imbalance? By way of Hydaelyn's gifts? If Hydaelyn has no power over the Darkness, how are we supposed to harness it to combat the unique threats facing the First - and if Darkness is Zodiark's domain, wouldn't that give him a way to influence us as well?

"Win or lose, the path you walk leads only to oblivion." Somebody get not-G'raha to get us out of this Catch-22...

Ahem.

The Shadowbringers arc will likely be wrapped up in 5.3, as was the case for Heavensward and Stormblood (ending with the Nidhogg / Tsukuyomi fights in 3.3 / 4.3, respectively).

You got to go into other "sayings" about light and darkness/good and Evil to understand how we can use both Light and Darkness.

one very important example is the concept of yin and yang.

Within Yin is majority Darkness but inside there is a little bit of Light and in yang it is mostly Light but inside there is a little bit of Darkness.

Another is that Light and Darkness exists side by side with each other and also part of a single thing despite opposite methods. One cannot exists without the other thus for a person to have a Light they must also have a Darkness. If one side was to be destroyed the other side will follow as well which is kind of what is happening in the First as with Darkness destroyed until WoL/WoD restores it, the light of the world will continue to destroy it self until nothing is left since Sin Eaters and life cannot continue to exists if all life is destroyed by the Flood of Light unless Darkness returns.

[Nalien]

It's interesting to notice that the mural appears to go left to right in chronological order. Going backwards, that means the final state is Hydaelyn with two halos... and then before that is Hydaelyn and Zodiark with one halo each... and then there's Zodiark with two halos? What does THAT mean?

I wonder about that...

One way, you have a distinctly fire-based calamitous event going on, followed by Zodiark/proto-Zodiark banishing the flames, then a split to Hydaelyn and Zodiark, with I guess "the star" in the background, ending with Hydaelyn stepping on Zodiark.

Obviously that's the way to read it, right? It's a historical mural, right? Couldn't possibly be a prophetic one if you read it the other way around... Main reason I'm thinking that is perhaps because one of the dungeons appeared to me to be the "Calamity" mural, of course that could be anything else too... We already have a town on fire-dungeon, we know the woods burn at some point (boy there sure is a lot of fire in this expansion), could even be a Memoria style reliving history dungeon... Still, made my mind wander somewhat... Hydaelyn banished Zodiark, the followers of both end up fighting, Zodiark wins, Calamity ensures... Can read that mural either way now... Heck, even left to right it can still be read as prophetic, given again just how much fire falling from the sky there appears to be in the First...

[Cilia]

Kinda splicing in some thoughts from the Have the Ascians Ever Lied, how is this revelation supposed to devastate our affiliation with Hydaelyn while the Ascians are still so pro-Zodiark, if they're both just primals? What makes Him the one true god, then? It's interesting to notice that the mural appears to go left to right in chronological order. Going backwards, that means the final state is Hydaelyn with two halos... and then before that is Hydaelyn and Zodiark with one halo each... and then there's Zodiark with two halos? What does THAT mean?

Is it a hint that Zodiark actually came first and that's what all the hubbub is about? Or is it merely a visualization of Zodiark in the same power-position as Hydaelyn is at the end of the story? Or is this supposed to be a combined Hydaelyn/Zodiark entity and the two-halo Hydaelyn at the end of something else?

What's everyone's thoughts on that?

Why the Ascians refer to Zodiark as the "one true god" is pretty much the first question I had with Emet-Selch stating they're primals (false gods). I have no clue how that works, so I'll just wait with bated breath.

You got to go into other "sayings" about light and darkness/good and Evil to understand how we can use both Light and Darkness.

one very important example is the concept of yin and yang.

Within Yin is majority Darkness but inside there is a little bit of Light and in yang it is mostly Light but inside there is a little bit of Darkness.

Another is that Light and Darkness exists side by side with each other and also part of a single thing despite opposite methods. One cannot exists without the other thus for a person to have a Light they must also have a Darkness. If one side was to be destroyed the other side will follow as well which is kind of what is happening in the First as with Darkness destroyed until WoL/WoD restores it, the light of the world will continue to destroy it self until nothing is left since Sin Eaters and life cannot continue to exists if all life is destroyed by the Flood of Light unless Darkness returns.

The kinks going forward can be worked out, but ultimately my major contention is with the Catch-22 regarding our heroic exploits.

We can't win, because doing so tips the scales toward Light which will ultimately lead to a Flood of Light; however if we do nothing the Ascians and/or Garlean Empire will cause lots of suffering, death, and destruction, things that we should aim to prevent because possessing the power to do so we have a moral obligation to at least try.

What's the right choice? What should or could we be doing differently, short of sitting around twiddling our thumbs because "balance dood?"

It's a Catch-22 - a no-win situation, as totally-definitely-probably-maybe not G'raha helpfully points out.

[EdwinLi]

Why the Ascians refer to Zodiark as the "one true god" is pretty much the first question I had with Emet-Selch stating they're primals (false gods). I have no clue how that works, so I'll just wait with bated breath.



The kinks going forward can be worked out, but ultimately my major contention is with the Catch-22 regarding our heroic exploits.

We can't win, because doing so tips the scales toward Light which will ultimately lead to a Flood of Light; however if we do nothing the Ascians and/or Garlean Empire will cause lots of suffering, death, and destruction, things that we should aim to prevent because possessing the power to do so we have a moral obligation to at least try.

What's the right choice? What should or could we be doing differently, short of sitting around twiddling our thumbs because "balance dood?"

It's a Catch-22 - a no-win situation, as totally-definitely-probably-maybe not G'raha helpfully points out.

the way i see things is that the Light and Darkness balance is liek SHin Megami Tensei series Law and Chaos balance.

In Law you focus so much on doing what is considered right and helping others above yourself while Chaos is doing things for selfish reasons and more about your own individual freedom.

While one side may seem good and another evil, you have to look at the bigger picture of a action being what will be gained and what will be lost.

For example...

Law) A bunch of people are injured and you can focus on helping them but this delay you by hours and you must start from the beginning and the enemy has used that time to gain strength but the people you saved and others will remember your kindness and survive the battle.

Chaos) You leave those people and go forward, these people may die but you can end this battle faster to prevent more deaths since the boss is in a weak stats and his defeat will force enemies to retreat the moment he is killed.

People will find reasons to hate and like you for both actions but the choice is between Law which focus on others above yourself or Chaos which focus on yourself above others. When we look back in WoL past actions they focus a lot on the Law Aspect of things always favoring others above him or herself despite the reasons.

The thing about Ascians is that their actions are all about "Chaos" which is just as bad as too much "Law". A Balance of actions is required that should produce the same result but different methods without needing to side with the Antagonist in their blind "Chaos" path.