I've kicked players for wearing the wrong gear!

[Awha]

If two out of the three players agree then vote kick away. Not like a GM can prove the intent especially if you do not say anything in chat.

End of the day in my opinion a player may be entitled to a certain level of respect but that goes both ways. Though with the way gear works now outside of ilvl we do not have to worry about using wrong stats in current content, and with how easy it is to gear up in this game players have no real excuse to be grossly under geared. Granted that could be subjective.

[OhnoozeMyToes]

More important than this conversation is the big question of "why is the forum showing me as lvl 24 when I'm 34" and I still can't start a new topic.

[Kaethra]

The real question is why doesn't Square action accounts for frivolous reports.

Or maybe they do and we just don't hear about it?

Because frivolous is subjective.

Think about it. Lets say we're in a group. And I kick you. You report it because you feel wronged. What happens?

They're going to look at the party chat. At the first glance they're going to see someone say hello/hi/hey as the dungeon starts. Then a vote kick. What do they action here? In the scenario I just gave, there is nothing said, nothing argued. Just that you poofed out of the dungeon because three people kicked. The GM has nothing to go on. At a glance it seems like a frivolous kick. But as we all know, not all communication is done in game. If I kick you in this scenario, its likely because I'm grouped with 1-2 friends on discord. You're likely never going to even know why. The reason will ultimately be irrelevant (reason may not even be related to this thread entirely).

And this is important because the GM is very likely going to assume some out of game communication either happened. Or you did something that warranted a kick in the eyes of the group. You see there's two things at play here the GM will NOT get involved in.

1. Out of Game communication. SE is not going to action people for activities outside their service. Plain and simple, my actions in my own discord are for me to police, not SE. Even actions that break the TOS/CoC/EULA they won't care nor ever know about. They will have to default to difference in playstyle. Because thats what that translates to in game.

2. Unspoken event happened in play. Maybe you didn't heal when the players thought you should. DPS when you should have. Maybe you didn't do mechanics the way the group thought you should. Notice I didn't say you didn't do them right or wrong. But the way the rest of the group thought you should. You may be doing everything right. But the group has another idea. This also falls under difference in playstyle, you can be kicked for this.

In either case no one is obligated to even tell you why they kicked you. That's the key part. Communication while desired, is not required. There is no duty of players to reconcile. Which is why it makes this whole thing subjective. And also why SE GMs are likely to err on the side of the majority.

This is why only the most egregious reasons for kicking will be actioned. If you reported and they looked at the party chat and saw someone say, "Hey this person is X-ethnicity, lets kick that <insert slur here>" And then you get vote kicked out. Then yes, action will be taken. But if that is said in discord (even if you are present in that channel when it happens) or other outside means. There's just nothing a GM can do. They can only action on things said in game and if they explicitly break a rule.

Otherwise its your word against theirs.

As for wearing the wrong gear. That falls under not playing in the way the group thinks you should. But again, I have to ask. Why would anyone want to group with people who don't like the gear they are wearing? That desire is not something I understand. I'm just putting myself in different shoes here. If I was in a group and they didn't like my gear, and are willing to kick me for it. I don't want to be in a group with them anyway.

[Physic]

Because frivolous is subjective.

Think about it. Lets say we're in a group. And I kick you. You report it because you feel wronged. What happens?

They're going to look at the party chat. At the first glance they're going to see someone say hello/hi/hey as the dungeon starts. Then a vote kick. What do they action here? In the scenario I just gave, there is nothing said, nothing argued. Just that you poofed out of the dungeon because three people kicked. The GM has nothing to go on. At a glance it seems like a frivolous kick. But as we all know, not all communication is done in game. If I kick you in this scenario, its likely because I'm grouped with 1-2 friends on discord. You're likely never going to even know why. The reason will ultimately be irrelevant (reason may not even be related to this thread entirely).

And this is important because the GM is very likely going to assume some out of game communication either happened. Or you did something that warranted a kick in the eyes of the group. You see there's two things at play here the GM will NOT get involved in.

1. Out of Game communication. SE is not going to action people for activities outside their service. Plain and simple, my actions in my own discord are for me to police, not SE. Even actions that break the TOS/CoC/EULA they won't care nor ever know about. They will have to default to difference in playstyle. Because thats what that translates to in game.

2. Unspoken event happened in play. Maybe you didn't heal when the players thought you should. DPS when you should have. Maybe you didn't do mechanics the way the group thought you should. Notice I didn't say you didn't do them right or wrong. But the way the rest of the group thought you should. You may be doing everything right. But the group has another idea. This also falls under difference in playstyle, you can be kicked for this.

In either case no one is obligated to even tell you why they kicked you. That's the key part. Communication while desired, is not required. There is no duty of players to reconcile. Which is why it makes this whole thing subjective. And also why SE GMs are likely to err on the side of the majority.

This is why only the most egregious reasons for kicking will be actioned. If you reported and they looked at the party chat and saw someone say,

Otherwise its your word against theirs.

its not a question of do you want to group with them, its a question of why they get to waste your time. If you are not a tank/healer, you may have have spent 10-30 minutes in queue, and however long in the dungeon before the kick. So why is the kickee paying the price in a random group finder?

[Physic]

If two out of the three players agree then vote kick away. Not like a GM can prove the intent especially if you do not say anything in chat.

End of the day in my opinion a player may be entitled to a certain level of respect but that goes both ways. Though with the way gear works now outside of ilvl we do not have to worry about using wrong stats in current content, and with how easy it is to gear up in this game players have no real excuse to be grossly under geared. Granted that could be subjective.

we discussed this before, but ultimately you are conflating what should one do, and what can someone be punished for.

for example, if you and a friend punch some one in the face, and no one else sees, and you have fake alibi, you probably wont go to jail. That doesnt mean you should go around punching people in the face.

[Physic]

This is an MMO. I understand having anxiety (as I also have it), but this isn't our problem. If someone is asking you a question or talking to you about something in relation to the piece of content you're doing and/or gear/skill, then you better speak up and say something. Interacting with people is part of the game and genre, whether you want to or not, so if that's something they want to do then they either do Squadron runs or go play a different genre.



No thanks. If they don't want to get the gear or learn their rotations, then I want nothing to do with them. This mentality is literally the same reason why we have these types of players, and I can't fathom why this is the only community that actually encourages this type of behavior.

you have those type of players because the content allows it, and because its an mmo, full of many players of various skill levels in a random grouping tool. If most people kicked based on their subjective performance evaluations, they would have to severely limit the kick feature, or introduce strict penalties for kicking in random duty finder. The game does allow you to search for others with more specific criteria, thats what party finder is for.

this is because the main purpose of the random duty finder is to group any player who wants to do content, if it becomes a losing proposition to queue, it cannot achieve its purpose.

imo, kicks in duty finder should be more strictly enforced, if its not for cheating/harrassment/afk. kicks in party finder should be the bar that you are talking about.

[Nedkel]

Their playstyle doesn't fit with the rest of the party or my own at all. Therefore I am removing them from the party, which requires more people than just me, and if they get removed, that means multiple people in the party agreed we are better off without them. Not to mention you can circumvent that "restriction" by equipping the WRONG gear, for example having accessories for magical damage when you're pure melee.

End of story. There is no discussion to be had here.

You did not got what i was trying to explain here.
If someone has a gear that allows him to play X content and get into the duty, especially 50-60 or 70 lvl then you cant kick them because of it. Kicking someone because they are "undergeared" which in case of a roulette requirements are not, does not fall under the "different playstyles". Playstyle is not a gear you wear, its how you play your character.
In new ToS there is a line about "obstruction of play" which says:

"Obstruction of play" means all behaviour in general that obstructs another person's game play. Below is a non-exhaustive list of examples of obstruction of play:
・Improper expulsion voting
This means excluding another person by manipulation of expulsion voting.

This saying it clearly, you cant kick people freely out from the duty. If game allows someone to play X content then he is supposed to play X content, and there is nothing that would say someone is "not fit" for duty, if he could enter the duty he is most likely fit for it, game gives you a whole 120 minutes to finish it for this exact reason in case that the whole party would be undergeared. Of course it would depend on GM, but if you happen to kick someone from lvl 60 because he is wearing shinryu gear or something that line, he could report you and give you trouble. So you may want to not kicking people so often or at all for this exact reason, since rules are cheesy and it is easier than ever to ban someone, and if there would few people who would report you for the exact same thing, it is all in the GMs logs, they may look closer at you and grant you a prize.

Thats how mafia works ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Canadane]

This saying it clearly, you cant kick people freely out from the duty. If game allows someone to play X content then he is supposed to play X content, and there is nothing that would say someone is "not fit" for duty

You can queue for Castrum Abania, the highest tier of leveling dungeon we have right now wearing a level 1 weapon and no gear at all.
You cannot reasonably expect someone to be just gracefully accepted that way.

[Nedkel]

You can queue for Castrum Abania, the highest tier of leveling dungeon we have right now wearing a level 1 weapon and no gear at all.
You cannot reasonably expect someone to be just gracefully accepted that way.

This one is ilvl synced, so kicking someone for wearing lvl 50 gear for example would be abusing vote-kick.

[CazzT]

You can queue for Castrum Abania, the highest tier of leveling dungeon we have right now wearing a level 1 weapon and no gear at all.
You cannot reasonably expect someone to be just gracefully accepted that way.

I think I'll zone in like this next time I'm on just for giggles.