QOL change for War for ShB - Onslaught - No not asking for removal of gauge cost

[whiskeybravo]

So perhaps what you should really be asking is for them to buff Fell Cleave. But maybe, just maybe, it might be a nice thing to support the other tanks in getting their issues fixed, instead of demanding buffs on a complete non-issue for a job that is grossly overpowered to begin with. And hey, I even did your math for you so that you don't have to.

Please, I've been nothing but supportive of the other tanks getting their "half fixes"

Edit: Conceding until I can verify for myself by comparing multiple rotations.

[Izsha]

Lyth, you completely ignored inner chaos from you calc on gauge value. Every FC we do lowers infuriate by 5 sec. Every 11 FCs gives you a free inner chaos that replaces and FC (timer is functionally 55 sec since chaos reduces it by 5).

avg GCD potency of 1,2,3 combo:
283.333

FC potency:
520-293.33=226.67

Chaos potency
900-520=380 potency over FC.

380/11=34.54 This is the potency the 5 sec reduction from using FC gives as 11 FCs give 1 Chaos that replaces an FC. Add to FC potency:

226.67+34.54=261.2

10 gauge dps=
261.2/5=52.24

Therefore 20 gauge=104.48. Onslaught looks pretty good right? Sidegrade action for mobility.

But the catch is Chaos Crit/Direct hit which about doubles it to 1800 potency. Obviously FC will have some level of base crit to up the potency and there are party buffs and such to increase that, but for simplicity lets just double the potency and see where it lands.

Chaos potency
1800-520=1280 potency over FC.

1280/11=116.36 This is the potency the 5 sec reduction from using FC gives as 11 FCs give 1 Chaos that replaces an FC. Add to FC potency:

226.67+116.36=343.0303

10 gauge dps=
343.03/5=68.61

20 gauge=137.03

Its not nearly as extreme as some have suggested, but thats also why I mentioned that im not terribly worried about it. The old one had additional uses with the enmity and niche in unchained, and those no longer exist, but the addition of arms length also means we wont need it as often as before. Its a QoL item, but it would still be nice to tweak, as are all QoL items.

But I'll take you up on the higher FC damage. Also of note, we may have already won that anyway. The Japanese tool tip for FC has 580 instead of the english 520. TLDR: tooltips are in flux and all of this may be completely wrong anyway. Sweating the fine details now is a bit of a waste imo. We wont know the actual status of onslaught until things go live because its value is entirely relative to the potency of gauge and that is up for grabs right now.

[Lyth]

Re-read that post again. I explicitly stated "The only times that you won't want to use Onslaught are when it costs you a usage of Inner Chaos (which is going to be tied to your Infuriate uses anyways), or if it costs you a use of Upheaval (maybe don't do that)."

The gauge from IC always tied to Infuriate. There are no "natural" ICs. So you can temporarily borrow from this gauge and use it on something else (incurring a loss if you aren't able to pay it back in time), but you're meant to spend that gauge on IC before Nascant Chaos runs out.

So no, I don't need to do the math on something so obvious. Onslaught on average is small gain over natural FCs. Gauge from Infuriate should go towards IC. All the potency numbers seem to be adjusted to make gameplay more forgiving now, so long as you remember to hit your combo. Fell Cleave is really just there to prevent overflow gauge. You can try to min max an extra 10-20 potency if you like by messing around with Onslaught, but remember that your standard combo is 293 potency per GCD on average. You'll see even less variation between "good" and "average" this time around.

[Izsha]

You dont 'borrow' gauge to use Onslaught because you are never getting that gauge back. The next 20 gauge you get could have put you at 40. If you use it on onslaught its gone.

Yes. You are correct IC is always tied to infuriate. How you fail to see that FCs give you infuriate is a little strange.

Chaos is created by infuriate. Infuriate is sped by FCs. FCs cost gauge. Onslaught costs gauge. They are all inexorably linked. Spending gauge on onslaught directly links to how many Chaos you get. You want to dissociate that to make your numbers look better, be my guest, but ignoring math just makes you wrong.

Ironically, you are the one talking about min maxing for 20 potency since you insist on focusing on the EXACT gcd that is being replaced. I am simply talking about the average. If you are fighting a dummy and use onslaught, what happens. If you are NOT min maxing because you know the fight so well that you can predict the GCD you will end the fight with and how much gauge you will have when a fight ends, my calculation holds water. You want to talk about ending a fight on a heavy swing or another gcd. The average simply shows what the skill is actually worth.

And again, all this is entirely dependant on the value of gauge which is already uncertain as different languages have different potencies for all classes and actions including the crux of war, FC.

[NyneSwordz]

Re-read that post again. I explicitly stated "The only times that you won't want to use Onslaught are when it costs you a usage of Inner Chaos (which is going to be tied to your Infuriate uses anyways), or if it costs you a use of Upheaval (maybe don't do that)."

The gauge from IC always tied to Infuriate. There are no "natural" ICs. So you can temporarily borrow from this gauge and use it on something else (incurring a loss if you aren't able to pay it back in time), but you're meant to spend that gauge on IC before Nascant Chaos runs out.

So no, I don't need to do the math on something so obvious. Onslaught on average is small gain over natural FCs. Gauge from Infuriate should go towards IC. All the potency numbers seem to be adjusted to make gameplay more forgiving now, so long as you remember to hit your combo. Fell Cleave is really just there to prevent overflow gauge. You can try to min max an extra 10-20 potency if you like by messing around with Onslaught, but remember that your standard combo is 293 potency per GCD on average. You'll see even less variation between "good" and "average" this time around.

You can't really "borrow" gauge to use on Onslaught. Because the value here is really time - the 5 second decrease to Infuriate which translates to more Inner Chaos. And that time is just gone if you don't use the rage for a FC and use Onslaught instead. There is no borrowing...

At any rate, we'll see what happens.

[NyneSwordz]

You dont 'borrow' gauge to use Onslaught because you are never getting that gauge back. The next 20 gauge you get could have put you at 40. If you use it on onslaught its gone.

Yes. You are correct IC is always tied to infuriate. How you fail to see that FCs give you infuriate is a little strange.

Chaos is created by infuriate. Infuriate is sped by FCs. FCs cost gauge. Onslaught costs gauge. They are all inexorably linked. Spending gauge on onslaught directly links to how many Chaos you get. You want to dissociate that to make your numbers look better, be my guest, but ignoring math just makes you wrong.

Ironically, you are the one talking about min maxing for 20 potency since you insist on focusing on the EXACT gcd that is being replaced. I am simply talking about the average. If you are fighting a dummy and use onslaught, what happens. If you are NOT min maxing because you know the fight so well that you can predict the GCD you will end the fight with and how much gauge you will have when a fight ends, my calculation holds water. You want to talk about ending a fight on a heavy swing or another gcd. The average simply shows what the skill is actually worth.

And again, all this is entirely dependant on the value of gauge which is already uncertain as different languages have different potencies for all classes and actions including the crux of war, FC.

Thanks Izsha for the computations and clarifications.

[Jonnycbad]

It's a gap closer, you don't need it to pull, but when bosses or mobs hop across the arena for various things or when you need to step out of point-blank AoEs and dive back in, Onslaught becomes a useful TOOL.

[NyneSwordz]

It's a gap closer, you don't need it to pull, but when bosses or mobs hop across the arena for various things or when you need to step out of point-blank AoEs and dive back in, Onslaught becomes a useful TOOL.

I realize that. But it just feels better if it was on the charge system. Which is why I said it was a QOL suggestion.

Nice pic btw. Made me rethink my rage post. Guess there's no point getting mad at people being jerks on the internet. Like what's new? Better to just report it.

[Lyth]

Given how short the recast is on Onslaught is, I don't think that storing charges would do anything other than make the IR window more powerful.

It was an entertaining post, though.

[whiskeybravo]

You can try to min max an extra 10-20 potency if you like by messing around with Onslaught, but remember that your standard combo is 293 potency per GCD on average. You'll see even less variation between "good" and "average" this time around.

The fact that we'd even have to jump through such hoops to make a point one way or the other is indicative of the problem itself.

Meanwhile PLD just got a pat on the back worth 400 potency every 60 sec. How appropriate.