Why are people calling it “casualbringers” now?

[Nedkel]

They were either bad, inexperienced or played with tanks who didn't pop CDs. Very often you'll find healers who assume all <insert tank name> are squishy because they ran into a few too many over the week who thought Anticipation is a good CD for tank busters. You also realize allowing healers to focus on their DPS at the expense of your own is a loss, yes? Tanks contribute far higher DPS than a tank forced into tank stance. A Warrior is giving up Fell Cleave so a White Mage can get in a couple extra Stone IV's.

The fact tank stance is getting overhauled in a month doesn't change what you said is simply incorrect. I am just as easy to heal with 99% Deliverance usage and proper CD management as you except I'll also contribute over 2k+ more damage.

Doesnt change a fact, running offstance in dungeons outside the boss fight is a easy ticket for wiping.
And i guess he plays dungeons for the most part, thats why he says that tank stance helps healer and its better that way, and he is not far away from truth.
Warrior is just that one exception because that class could do more aoe damage than dps, but DRK and PLD running dungeon with off stance is asking for trouble, there is no way you will be able to hold aggro on them in off stance.

[SargentToughie]

Doesnt change a fact, running offstance in dungeons outside the boss fight is a easy ticket for wiping.
And i guess he plays dungeons for the most part, thats why he says that tank stance helps healer and its better that way, and he is not far away from truth.
Warrior is just that one exception because that class could do more aoe damage than dps, but DRK and PLD running dungeon with off stance is asking for trouble, there is no way you will be able to hold aggro on them in off stance.

That's really not the case, though.

If you're rotating your cooldowns properly, PLD and DRK have nothing to fear even pulling big. I run EXR as a Scholar every once in a while, and every time I do, my PLD friend is able to Sword Oath for Eclipse spam once he's secured threat. It costs me an Adlo while we're running, and maybe an Excog sometimes if cooldowns got rotated poorly.

[Sanctify]

That's really not the case, though.

If you're rotating your cooldowns properly, PLD and DRK have nothing to fear even pulling big. I run EXR as a Scholar every once in a while, and every time I do, my PLD friend is able to Sword Oath for Eclipse spam once he's secured threat. It costs me an Adlo while we're running, and maybe an Excog sometimes if cooldowns got rotated poorly.

Exactly, pull wall to wall, throw a flash followed by scorn and you're golden to FoF+swordoath and start spamming TE. Of course mix some mitigating into that.

[Mixt]

"Once he's secured threat" is the key part of that sentence.

Actually doing that is easier said than done when in DPS stance.

It's like:

FLASH!
FLASH!
RIP, Oops, there goes threat, the rest of the party took a bunch of mobs to the face.
ULTIMATUM!
FLASH!
RIP...And there goes threat again.

[SargentToughie]

"Once he's secured threat" is the key part of that sentence.

Actually doing that is easier said than done when in DPS stance.

It's like:

FLASH!
FLASH!
RIP, Oops, there goes threat, the rest of the party took a bunch of mobs to the face.
ULTIMATUM!
FLASH!
RIP...And there goes threat again.

You do know that you can switch stances mid combat, right?

Flash + CoS + Flash, Sword Oath into Eclipse spam.

This is some pretty entry level stuff here.

[Kaylessa]

Speedrunning is a great and efficient way of clearing content in dungeons if all your DPS, your healer, and your tank play in an optimal fashion. If the tank is having a bad day, then they will make the healer's day bad as well. If the DPS aren't optimal, then they will make the healer have a bad day. And if the healer isn't optimal, everybody dies.

I have no doubt that Ser Luke did get many healers who thanked him, because use duty finder often enough as a healer and you will find a lot of groups trying to clear content as fast as possible when they shouldn't really be trying for the speedrunning record. And that's a good way to turn a helpful healer, into a bitter healer who laughs when people die

[Mixt]

Except that would mean Tank Stance is in fact being used at all, even if a little.

Which doesn't go with the whole "NO TANK STANCE EVER!" argument some people are tossing around.

"But that's a GCD loss! You shouldn't need to swap! Just use DPS stance all the time!" They say

"You don't need Tank Stance Lol!" They say

And so on.

Taken literally, that does lead to the unable to establish initial aggro situation i laid out far more often than not.

[SargentToughie]

Except that would mean Tank Stance is in fact being used at all, even if a little.

Which doesn't go with the whole "NO TANK STANCE EVER!" argument some people are tossing around.

"But that's a GCD loss! You shouldn't need to swap! Just use DPS stance all the time!" They say

"You don't need Tank Stance Lol!" They say

And so on.

Taken literally, that does lead to the unable to establish initial aggro situation i laid out far more often than not.

So... Don't take them literally? It should go without saying that if a tank pulls a fight in DPS stance, and only uses it's DPS combos, it's going to lose threat within seconds. You do still need those tools, however sparingly you use them.

The best tank is the one that pops into their stance for about 3 GCDs at the start of a pull, secures threat, and never touches it again unless absolutely necessary. Thus, you spend about 99% of your time in DPS stance.

I don't even know why I'm saying all this, your comment seems like a pretty bad faith argument honestly. The spirit of "no tank stance" is to refute against the subpar tanks that just squat in their stance and do nothing but mash their 3 part enmity combo through a whole encounter, and then try and argue that their 'playstyle' is just different, when it's actually just strictly inferior to actually putting in effort.

[Nedkel]

That's really not the case, though.

If you're rotating your cooldowns properly, PLD and DRK have nothing to fear even pulling big. I run EXR as a Scholar every once in a while, and every time I do, my PLD friend is able to Sword Oath for Eclipse spam once he's secured threat. It costs me an Adlo while we're running, and maybe an Excog sometimes if cooldowns got rotated poorly.

Thats in the best case scenario, where a tank has good gear and everyone is doing their job.
If healer is going to throw aoe heal, to heal a dps who took some aoe damage to the face, then tank will drop aggro a moment after that if he is outside the tank stance.
If DPS hits single target spells all the time he will pull the mob or two to him.
Thats why tank stances are bad, your team determines how much fun you could get from playing a tank and you are basically forced to play with tank stance on that just limits you from doing stuff especially on DRK which is a ton more fun to play with off stance.

In most cases you in DF you dont want to stance dance since people you play with often does not use their utility or do a lot of stupid things. Yesterday i was losing a single mob aggro to ninja because he was somehow single targeting one mob all the time, i was a PLD in tank stance i was unable to keep these single mobs away from him with spamming AOE, had to target the mob he was killing.

[SargentToughie]

Thats in the best case scenario, where a tank has good gear and everyone is doing their job.
If healer is going to throw aoe heal, to heal a dps who took some aoe damage to the face, then tank will drop aggro a moment after that if he is outside the tank stance.
If DPS hits single target spells all the time he will pull the mob or two to him.
Thats why tank stances are bad, your team determines how much fun you could get from playing a tank and you are basically forced to play with tank stance on that just limits you from doing stuff especially on DRK which is a ton more fun to play with off stance.

In most cases you in DF you dont want to stance dance since people you play with often does not use their utility or do a lot of stupid things. Yesterday i was losing a single mob aggro to ninja because he was somehow single targeting one mob all the time, i was a PLD in tank stance i was unable to keep these single mobs away from him with spamming AOE, had to target the mob he was killing.

Oh, yeah. I completely and totally agree with you that the tank changes are amazing. I can't wait to sink my teeth into them and see how tanking feels now that it's been made more streamlined. Been actually arguing in their favor in this very thread the last few days.

I'm just kinda describing how things work right now. Admittedly, none of it is going to matter in about 30 days, but I just like to set the record straight whenever possible. Anyway... ehh, I usually don't have too many issues. Tank stance gets you a pretty crazy amount of aggro, and 2 flashes + CoS is generally sets me up for success, outside of a few outlying incidents.