New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[SerLuke]

I've never played WoW, nor have I ever had any desire to. Having a non-forced MSQ does not make a game a WoW-clone. XIV is the only MMO I've played that handles it in this way.

Yes, yes it is the only MMO that handles it this way, that’s part of why we love it and why many of us play this instead of other MMOs.

[Skivvy]

Yes, yes it is the only MMO that handles it this way, that’s part of why we love it and why many of us play this instead of other MMOs.

And that's fine, but how would tweaking things so that ARR/HW/SB no longer require 100% completion before moving on affect you personally?

[Alucard135]

Yes, yes it is the only MMO that handles it this way, that’s part of why we love it and why many of us play this instead of other MMOs.

Or they could do something similar to GW2 and have you choose which expansion MSQ you want to progress. If you have SB you can start doing SB MSQ without having to do ARR and HW. If you decided to go back to ARR, the game records your current progress in SB MSQ and you start doing ARR MSQ (similar to how they explained NG+ would work). So MSQ is still important and not optional, but you get to choose which volume of it you'd want to play.

But they most likely won't do that, since it will kill MSQ skip potion sales.

[SerLuke]

And that's fine, but how would tweaking things so that ARR/HW/SB no longer require 100% completion before moving on affect you personally?

Because people also want the future MSQ content to be changed to be like that as well.

[Skivvy]

Because people also want the future MSQ content to be changed to be like that as well.

OK, but as an individual you would still have the option to do a 100% clear of the MSQ if that is your thing.

Or they could do something similar to GW2 and have you choose which expansion MSQ you want to progress. If you have SB you can start doing SB MSQ without having to do ARR and HW. If you decided to go back to ARR, the game records your current progress in SB MSQ and you start doing ARR MSQ (similar to how they explained NG+ would work). So MSQ is still important and not optional, but you get to choose which volume of it you'd want to play.

But they most likely won't do that, since it will kill MSQ skip potion sales.

I do like how GW2 handles their story progression. You are able to move ahead if you need to for whatever reason, but it still leaves the older stories there and waiting for you when you're ready to move back. It's quite nice.

[SerLuke]

OK, but as an individual you would still have the option to do a 100% clear of the MSQ if that is your thing.

Sigh

We are going around in the circles. We’ve explained countless times how that would ruin the interconnectedness plot wise everything has in the game.
As an individual you also have the choice to either use a skip potion or play, like you said, one of the countless other MMOs that don’t do story progression like a Final Fantasy game you have all these other MMOs that do story in the way you prefer, is it so wrong that we have this one?

[Shougun]

...Isn't that basically his point, that ARR, HW, and SB, etc. combined are too big at this point to feel like a single game (or, to leave you time to feel like you're really investing in any one of the expansions)?

In my opinion, though, it's more alike to the 3 releases of Starcraft II, where each gave one of the three races' individual campaigns and cumulatively updated the shared multiplayer experience. The stories are separate, but the backstory behind them are far too interlinked to feel wholly invested in any later step without the ones before it.

It's amazing how many of my friends enjoyed the aesthetics and vibes of the game but just couldn't trudge through that ARR MSQ, either dying out before the MSQ could improve, with/around the Mor Dhona rescue mission, or else during the ARR HW-prep slogfest. But at the same time, I cannot rightly recommend that they get jump potions and skip it all, even if that option were free. There's too much to lose there. It's just muddied and muddled down by being stretched too long and with too many irritants.

Eeyy! I never got to say hi after I was gone for a while, so hey man lol. Remember like waaaaay long ago (years) when we had that big ol' thread on ability combos (having abilities work together, sort of a skill/magic burst+ system). I think that was pre-arr haha .

Also yeah you understood what I was saying. If people doubt that was my intention then key wording at "otherwise", showing I was drawing a line myself intentionally (not stating one already existed) because I felt that was better (opinion obviously lol).

Starcraft 2 might have been a better choice, thanks .

I was trying to go more into metaphors to see if that helped anyone since clearly on just the base logic/opinions people are at quite a stand off (felt the thread had gone no where for many pages). Uh.. well the movie metaphor certainly didn't help people lol as I wasn't meaning 2 hour cutscene but seemed to be the takeaway until I corrected it XD. Although on the concept of a slideshow/cutscene party I do think players could get some fun lore while installing the game, at least back when I installed that wasn't taken advantage of.

All boiling down to me that each person can enjoy the game quite differently and while it's fine that some people greatly like it one way I don't think that HAS to be the only approach (so long as that other option doesn't come in and destroy the other choice), because others could love it another way. That if you refuse to give them an option they find reasonable they will leave, which looks like many people are fine with (the stand off doesn't move lol).

While I was trying to address that I also wanted to sneak in a snappier start, new quests for us all, and hopefully change a "fast start" player's mind on the lore by feeding them some of the juicy bits (such that even though they started of the mind of joining late and in a flash of speed their interest is perked up enough they'll pay attention and maybe desire to go back). Rather than telling people "no, unless you pay me the game again" or "how about climbing Everest first" I was hoping to be like "yeah sure sure.. but look at this fancy stuff while you do it.. ooo laaaa..." which might get them to willingly and happily change their mind vs choices that will likely lead to "okay I guess I'll try the newer/different game which has more modern amenities".

I guess to give it one more bad metaphor I imagine it like trying to get a kid to eat something they don't want to. You show them how great it is, depending on age you might explain why it's great, and even offer something else. "Oh I see you want more chicken nuggets, oh those are delicious yes.. but I think those spinach look great too, look at me just eat them all, if you eat another one you can have more chicken nuggets but you better hurry cause I'm going to eat them all! It's making me stronger like Popeye!". Now when the gate is low, say its only 3 spinach you can easily get them to eat it first but when the gate is high (loads and loads of spinach) it's much easier to convince them with a bit more give and take (also now it sounds like I'm overfeeding lol, metaphor and gone dark XD). The hope is one day they actually like the Spinach and if not at least they're capable of having a decent diet (didn't abandon the it all together).

Going to ask those that want msq optional/changed are you wanting it to remain as it is now where its 1 long questline with potential pruning or you asking for it like Tera where once you hit new level new msq pops up regardless of where you at?

Polishing and pruning some stuff into side quests (those types of changes) I'm not opposed to at all (quite welcome actually), though I doubt they can ever crunch down the time between start to current expansion to be "enough" the farther we go along (pruning ARR and if we we're at HW, that'd be enough but that's now history).

I'm for a new start which is a combination of lore background (it can't be perfect like movies can't nail a book perfectly, but it can be enough to avoid something like "who is the warrior of light?" lol), combat basic teaching (including some markers), quick world building, and act as an appetizer to the main dish (like most intros to the game, right before they dash the logo across the screen), new quests for us all, and on top of that it would also behave as (better more grounded) potion (as I don't like what they are and am worried they will become baseline maybe not now but in the future). Which means wherever it (intro) dropped you off that's the MSQ you'd have done so far (timeline wise). With that I'd also like a way for players to know, somewhere in some interface, that they have some missing MSQ (including different intros, perhaps we can encourage vets too) so they can be like ".. I can get three different mounts, 2 different sets from that lala, and lots of gil if I finish that expansion?... .. .. Well now that I'm invested- I suppose I can slowly work it into my schedule".

Why that? Because I think 200+ hours can be too much and 0 hours intro is too little, because I think the further we go the more inevitable a baseline potion will be and I'd rather try to improve (do something a bit different than just a potion as baseline option, I don't like the potion lol) making the experience into something that has more traction to reintegrate these blazing speeds. On top of what I think is inevitable while I don't tend to play the skip story way (I do all the side quests of most games too, like 100% witcher 3 sort of madness) I do know and understand that not everyone feels the same way and will value things differently and I don't mind a game being able to cater a bit to their style at least in some way. Like some people LOVE FFXIV... but all they do is craft and have barely touched the story, skipping everything they can. To me the catering would be occasionally an expansion introduces a new start to the game, so if they wanted they could use it to boost with context and some story carrying forward on an existing character. Like I know a few people who still play but haven't passed HW because for whatever reason they didn't like it, so they just do other things lol, and its probably they might stop at some story again if brought forward but each time we'd be giving them a bigger sandbox with more things to do and each time you're recacluating that "chance" they may actually change their mind on the MSQ part of the game ("oh.. you know I didn't really get in with the theme of Ishgard but omg I LOVE FAIRIES.. and Alphinaud is my favorite now.. I'm going to go back to learn more about him!").

Like I don't really think WoW should be doing their basic potion either... although story grounding is already less important there lol. I'm at the point of "0 investment is nothing, 200 is quite something but not everyone is ready for that breadth of a down payment or literally didn't want". Like early game combat, or a story theme that they weren't into (if someone wanted to come in exclusively because of dragons), if they're coming in because of friends to catch up to, because of a new expansion trailer where they may have quit previously because they didn't like "x" feature/expansion but would buy the new expansion for specifically what's in it. So I think lets get people in on a 2 hour down payment towards what they wanted and direct them through the experience and hopefully integrate them rather than just be like "extra $50 or 200 hours or get out". Although waiting to 7.0 I think would be a bit late as you've lost a number of people who would have loved the game dearly if given a chance to assimilate a bit later in the timeline. 7.0 would be the 5th expansion, which is why I picked it just putting it a parallel to about when WoW made it a default thing.. but FFXIV is also like 2 to 4 times as deep in story so I'd argue if we were going parallel we should lower our number (like at our 5.0 would = their Battle for Azeroth lol).

[Skivvy]

Sigh

We are going around in the circles. We’ve explained countless times how that would ruin the interconnectedness plot wise everything has in the game.
As an individual you also have the choice to either use a skip potion or play, like you said, one of the countless other MMOs that don’t do story progression like a Final Fantasy game you have all these other MMOs that do story in the way you prefer, is it so wrong that we have this one?

Yes, going around in circles indeed. This is an MMO that happens to have a story/MSQ like many other games in the genre. Just because it has "Final Fantasy" slapped on the title does not mean that the MSQ is the core of the game. The MSQ is simply a small piece of the content.

To be that broken record, XI does not force 100% completion on you. Yes, each expansion more or less had its own individual story, but even then - you were never forced to complete the whole MSQ line if you didn't want to. They could take a page from their past and make the game more flexible.

And what of those people who DO want to read the story, but just don't want to at that precise moment? New players are joining the game for a multitude of reasons, and I'm pretty sure at least some were drawn in by the latest expansion trailer. To even think of setting foot in it, they're going to have a ton of back-story to clear out - whether they want to or not.

As someone brought up ages ago in this thread, it's a bit like the Marvel movies and Endgame. There has been a ton of hype for the movie, and so you have old and new fans going to see it. Some people will be avid fans and have watched all 10+ movies that are relevant to it. Some may have binged hours and hours of movies in a short time just so they could get caught up. Others really don't care all that much about the past stories, but wanted to check out the latest movie for fun anyway. Perhaps those new to the series will be totally hooked by Endgame, and now want to go back and play catch up.

Point is, there there is nothing wrong with letting people enjoy as much or as little of the story as they please, and in their own time frame. Simply saying "buy a story jump" doesn't work for me.

[PyurBlue]

Sigh

We are going around in the circles. We’ve explained countless times how that would ruin the interconnectedness plot wise everything has in the game.

It's not clear how this would happen at all. An option MSQ changes nothing for those invested in the story. Your playthrough will be literally identical no matter the state of the MSQ. It seems like you think an optional MSQ requires the removal of lore from the game, but that clearly isn't the case, after all story skip doesn't require SE to remove the story.

[Alucard135]

It's not clear how this would happen at all. An option MSQ changes nothing for those invested in the story. Your playthrough will be literally identical no matter the state of the MSQ. It seems like you think an optional MSQ requires the removal of lore from the game, but that clearly isn't the case, after all story skip doesn't require SE to remove the story.

I think they mean that you can accidentally do a side quest that previously required MSQ to unlock. Think of something like doing Omega raids before doing HW 3.5 MSQ.