Disappointed in the turn the Garlean Empire has taken

[ObsidianFire]

The Ascians being behind the Garlean Empire makes a lot of sense. There was always a lot of "what is going on with the Garleans" since their goals never matched up with their actions. Once we got the reveal about the Ascians being behind the Garlean Empire, those finally matched.

I think I'm more disappointed at the timing behind the reveal in the narrative. At least currently as it is before 5.0. The Ascians being behind Garlemald feels like a bit of a red herring for 5.0 with 5.0 being on the 1st Shard instead of of the Source and Varis going back to Garlemald to deal with the rumors of Zenos being possessed by Elidibus. It almost feels like the reveal was done to just introduce Solus as the main antagonist for 5.0 rather then actually do something with the Ascians being behind Garlemald in the MSQ. You'd think the Ascians being behind Garlemald would be super important for where the MSQ is going next, but nope, turns out it actually isn't really since the WoL isn't going to be sticking around the Source. And the Ascians being behind Garlemald isn't really important when it comes to events not happening on the Source.

I hesitate to say this a bit... but the Ascians being behind Garlemald doesn't matter that much for the story the WoL is going to be dealing with in 5.0. From the looks of things, that isn't going to be our fight. It is going to matter a bunch for the Eorzean Alliance and anyone else who is trying to stop the Garlean Empire on the Source. In a way, it's going to matter for the people who are probably going to be learning about how to win without relying on the Warrior of Light and the Scions.

[Daralii]

The Ascians being behind the Garlean Empire makes a lot of sense. There was always a lot of "what is going on with the Garleans" since their goals never matched up with their actions. Once we got the reveal about the Ascians being behind the Garlean Empire, those finally matched.

I think I'm more disappointed at the timing behind the reveal in the narrative. At least currently as it is before 5.0. The Ascians being behind Garlemald feels like a bit of a red herring for 5.0 with 5.0 being on the 1st Shard instead of of the Source and Varis going back to Garlemald to deal with the rumors of Zenos being possessed by Elidibus. It almost feels like the reveal was done to just introduce Solus as the main antagonist for 5.0 rather then actually do something with the Ascians being behind Garlemald in the MSQ. You'd think the Ascians being behind Garlemald would be super important for where the MSQ is going next, but nope, turns out it actually isn't really since the WoL isn't going to be sticking around the Source. And the Ascians being behind Garlemald isn't really important when it comes to events not happening on the Source.

I hesitate to say this a bit... but the Ascians being behind Garlemald doesn't matter that much for the story the WoL is going to be dealing with in 5.0. From the looks of things, that isn't going to be our fight. It is going to matter a bunch for the Eorzean Alliance and anyone else who is trying to stop the Garlean Empire on the Source. In a way, it's going to matter for the people who are probably going to be learning about how to win without relying on the Warrior of Light and the Scions.

I suspect that they wanted to establish the situation in Garlemald and Zenos's current goal because we'll have some role playing instances with the latter to keep us somewhat up to date on what's happening on the Source in lieu of the WoL's absence. Better that than a big infodump whenever things on the First are resolved.

[Alleo]

This is true, and we also get the strange scare cut at the end of the expansion where Varis' face goes all dark and horror movie. On the other hand, I refuse to believe Varis is possessed because between Zenos' possessed body and Solus being a bunch of walking clones, I can't bear the idea that the third and final major Garlean character is also not what they seem.

Also its not like Varis was below killing of all beast tribes just because they could summon primals. So I still believe its him and he just thinks that using a chemical weapon gives humanity the chance to write their own history...also wouldnt Elidibus notice if Solus is using Varis body? I have hard time believing that they would not know this and Elidibus seems to be clueless about it.

[LineageRazor]

The Garlean mission statement doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Even before the reveal of Ascians being behind the Empire, if you look at it critically it doesn't make sense. "Prevent eikon summons which are carried out due to our efforts to prevent eikon summons which are carried out due to our efforts... blah blah blah ad infinitum." Even the assertion that the Burn was a result of eikon summons doesn't make a lot of sense - the Empire never encountered one beforehand, and summons were a lot less common back then... so how would have Solus known the Burn was the result of summons and not something else?

In defense of this, while the Beast Tribes WERE summoning in direct response to Garlean invasion, in theory if the Garleans were SUCCESSFUL in their invasion, they would slaughter every Beastman, and there would be no one left to summon. It's all due to those pesky Eorzeans getting in their way and stopping them from performing the much-needed genocides that the Primal problem wasn't resolved in short order. (Or, at least, that's the official company line.) So, assuming Solus was a human and not out to cause chaos for chaos's sake, it's not totally beyond the pale to assume that he was willing to weather a couple summonings in the short term to put and end to summoning FOREVER.

As for the Burn, even if the Garleans hadn't any personal experience with Primals, they have scholars, and the peoples they conquered also had scholars. There's any number of ways they could have learned about the Primals' aether-sucking nature. They advance to the Burn, are alarmed, and ask the Scholars of the are what's up with that. "Dunno," say the Scholars, "But we theorize it could have been due to Primal summonings? Apparently there were quite a few back in the day..." And the Garleans latch onto that like starving dogs on a steak, because not only does it give them a noble mission, but one that lets them expand their empire EVEN MORE, beyond just the nations that oppressed them thousands of years ago...

We know now none of that is the true motivation, but even had there been no Ascian involvement, it certainly COULD have been. Personally, I think the whole idea of Solus being an Ascian, and the Garlean Empire an Ascian tool, is a RECENT decision made by the storywriting team, not one that's been in place since the beginning. If that's true, then back in the day these motivations would have been genuine...

Also its not like Varis was below killing of all beast tribes just because they could summon primals. So I still believe its him and he just thinks that using a chemical weapon gives humanity the chance to write their own history...also wouldnt Elidibus notice if Solus is using Varis body? I have hard time believing that they would not know this and Elidibus seems to be clueless about it.

Why is it unreasonable to think that Ascians are capable of hiding from one another? To date, we haven't witnessed any evidence of Ascians possessing some kind of "Ascian sense" to identify each other. It could well be that while wearing a human's skin, an Ascian looks just like a human, even to other Ascians. I think it's quite possible - even likely - that Varis is Ascian-possessed, and hiding that fact from Elidibus. As long as Varis keeps spouting Varis-like lines, like "Man's destiny is his own," Elidibus will be none the wiser...

[Vulcwen]

In defense of this, while the Beast Tribes WERE summoning in direct response to Garlean invasion, in theory if the Garleans were SUCCESSFUL in their invasion, they would slaughter every Beastman, and there would be no one left to summon. It's all due to those pesky Eorzeans getting in their way and stopping them from performing the much-needed genocides that the Primal problem wasn't resolved in short order. (Or, at least, that's the official company line.) So, assuming Solus was a human and not out to cause chaos for chaos's sake, it's not totally beyond the pale to assume that he was willing to weather a couple summonings in the short term to put and end to summoning FOREVER.

Except, they would not commit genocide on the beast tribes. Ala Mhigo and Doma were under garlean rule, and beast tribes just went around. Heck, the garleans even made a deal with the red kojin.
It is all propaganda. In the end, they're just imperialistic if not evil due to Ascian orders.

[ObsidianFire]

We know now none of that is the true motivation, but even had there been no Ascian involvement, it certainly COULD have been. Personally, I think the whole idea of Solus being an Ascian, and the Garlean Empire an Ascian tool, is a RECENT decision made by the storywriting team, not one that's been in place since the beginning. If that's true, then back in the day these motivations would have been genuine...

Technically speaking... this goes for the majority of the plot ever since Yoshida took over as director. I don't think when the writing team came up with a plot idea is as important as how well a plot idea fits into the previously established plot and information about the involved parties. And Solus being an Ascian does that for a lot of people...

[Zohar_Lahar]

The Ascians being behind the Garlean Empire makes a lot of sense. There was always a lot of "what is going on with the Garleans" since their goals never matched up with their actions. Once we got the reveal about the Ascians being behind the Garlean Empire, those finally matched.

I think I'm more disappointed at the timing behind the reveal in the narrative. At least currently as it is before 5.0. The Ascians being behind Garlemald feels like a bit of a red herring for 5.0 with 5.0 being on the 1st Shard instead of of the Source and Varis going back to Garlemald to deal with the rumors of Zenos being possessed by Elidibus. It almost feels like the reveal was done to just introduce Solus as the main antagonist for 5.0 rather then actually do something with the Ascians being behind Garlemald in the MSQ. You'd think the Ascians being behind Garlemald would be super important for where the MSQ is going next, but nope, turns out it actually isn't really since the WoL isn't going to be sticking around the Source. And the Ascians being behind Garlemald isn't really important when it comes to events not happening on the Source.

I hesitate to say this a bit... but the Ascians being behind Garlemald doesn't matter that much for the story the WoL is going to be dealing with in 5.0. From the looks of things, that isn't going to be our fight. It is going to matter a bunch for the Eorzean Alliance and anyone else who is trying to stop the Garlean Empire on the Source. In a way, it's going to matter for the people who are probably going to be learning about how to win without relying on the Warrior of Light and the Scions.

I don't think it was a red herring at all, considering how Arbert said the Flood of Light started after they eliminated Ascians on the First. Any further war with Garlemald now risks us repeating the mistakes of the Warriors of the First. And that's before you consider how the on-going Flood of Light is starting to thin the aether on the Source. Solus believes Black Rose will be profoundly affected by this in an ominous way.

[NoblePigeon]

tbh i hated the Garlens before we saw that part ....

reason is technology to fight isn't interesting nor is it unique or fantasy.

Every garlen thing can be built irl with enough cash also it doesn't interest me what so ever.

how do people even like mech bs in games.
if i wanted mech id build it irl and use it

You’re playing the wrong damn game if you don’t want that kinda technology in this setting. Science fiction and fantasy have a long history of mingling, and Final Fantasy as a series hasn’t never shyed away from mixing them. Even the first game saw you fighting a giant robot at one point.

How do people even like mech bs in games? Because they think mechs are cool. And airships. And gigantic cannons that can level a town. And gunlances. The stylized Roman Empire/Victorian Britain/Imperial German hybrid aesthetic that Garlemald has is appealing to folks, and for good reason.

Using technology to fight is the main reason that I love Machinist. Because I love guns and steampunk tech in my fantasy.

[Jyera]

From what I remember, that was limited to the idea that Cid was using that motto to justify shackling his own mind out of fear born from what the Lunar Transmitter was capable of.

This is a wildly off-base interpretation of the motto. He firmly believes that technology has consequences and because of this nature its priority belongs with creating greater equality and accessibility for everyday people. It was never some ad-hoc "justification"--those 'shackles' are trauma, not simple fear. I feel like the Sigmascape arc is widely misunderstood, honestly.

Aside from that, oh dear. I was going to avoid making a long post, but now it's my time at last LMAO
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OP, yours was exactly and specifically my response right when the big reveal went down.

I've since hard-reversed on that stance, and it's going to take some space here for me to get it down, but I'll try to be coherent!

A few blasphemous things I want to get out of the way...

• I do not think Solus is Emet-Selch. Put more precisely, I do not feel there is adequate evidence to make that link. Our only source of information that an Ascian named Emet-Selch even exists is a few words from Gaius Baelsar--who, setting aside the incredible circumstance surrounding his survival--mysteriously seems capable of killing *Overlords* somehow. How did he get any of this intel? How did he learn to kill Overlords, and moreover, what with? How did he get it? Suffice to say, I'm a strong skeptic.
  
  
  
• I do not think Solus is only "Solus"; that is, I don't think he's a sockpuppet being worn by some mook Ascian. Though he hasn't shown us any overt actions, his narrative framing, via cinematic cueing, to me screams that he's a unique case even as Ascians go. To be specific here, he's got a unique appearance that he refers to as his own, for one; in thanking Varis for the clone bodies, he expresses the relief that as capable as he is of shaping a host body into himself, it's much easier to embody a clone that's already 'tailor-made' for him.
  
  Ascians of at least Overlord status can also craft bodies for themselves out of ambient aether; Nabriales does this during his invasion of the Waking Sands in 2.x, and while I suppose it's possible Solus simply bounced out to the factory and ported back with a body, the smoke effects of manual creation are the same as they were for Nabs' from-scratch regeneration, and Solus does lament what a waste of his time and energy the whole scenario of getting shot and reconstituting was.
  
  Second, he's got a completely unique OST theme; it's used very briefly in Eureka, but it's also his signature and starts playing whenever he makes a plot. Third (and I guess last for now), his role in Ascian politics seems to be a bit odd. He's been dormant since his mortal death, only brought back out AFTER Elidibus was already going to the extreme of stealing Zenos' liminally-dead body and becoming directly involved in the strife of the Source. Odd choices for an Emissary, and even then, that was apparently a sooner step than waking Solus. Solus' attitudes about his Ascian colleagues, combined with the way it seems not even Elidibus knows what he's doing or where he is, suggests he might occupy a peculiar niche in the hierarchy--maybe one that's volatile or dangerous.
  
  
• I am openly and honestly torn about what the origins of Solus-the-Ascian must be. At this point the story, cinematics, standing lore, and foreshadowing for the future story have me split down the middle between 'Solus was an Ascian all along who slipped into Garlean society and got busy', and something more akin to 'Solus was born a mortal man and made a kind of Faustian bargain to become an Ascian (for presently inostensible reasons)'. Both are compelling in their own right.

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To get back to the disquieting implications of the Ascian reveal as it pertains to human agency...

What settled the dust for me, I think, was the realisation that the very hard work of crafting an empire from a small and struggling republic, wasn't simply overriding the wills of human beings and playing house with them. It was the meticulous timing, preparation, and nudging of influences to get humans to Do Bad All By Themselves.

Solus got the thing started and wrought together all the ingredients, won the adoration of his people, and dropped a few ironic and convincing lies on top. The result was a loyal contingent of human agents ardently, utterly devoted to the dogma woven together out of the coalescence of Solus' schemes and their common history and ideologies. Garlean humans adopted these beliefs and policies; Garlean humans perpetuated them, ingrained them into their society, and spread them through their aggression.

They were duped, but they were also the ones choosing what they did with that lie. To me it would be kind of like saying the truth of the Dragonsong War was a weak twist because Ishgardians spent a thousand years acting on a very fundamental lie engraved into the foundation of their society.

What shifted my position was elements like the back-and-forth of the Meteor project. Solus ordered it cancelled after the incident at Bozja Citadel--only to review Nael van Darnus' appeal a few years later and approve its revival. At first I thought that was a bewildering thing for an Ascian with inherently supra-human knowledge to do--but it clicked after a while of fuming about it that the modus operandi of the Ascians (if maybe less so for the black-robeds) isn't wanton, maniacal egging-the-principal's-house chaos, but careful and calculated chaos engineered to affect the Balance in measured ways.

Solus kind of stirred the interest in Ascians that I was waiting since ARR to happen. I feel like for the first time we have a synthesis of the limits of human knowledge and the inside workings of Ascian knowledge. He sits at the vertex where these two spheres touch.

To cap off (unless I forgot something and will come back for another edit):

Solus didn't have to pick mortals up like dolls and make them mindlessly do his bidding. All he had to do was flawlessly execute the means to goad them into doing it all themselves.

...anyway that's also how I went from hating him to being absolutely head-over-heels in love with him

[Alleo]

Why is it unreasonable to think that Ascians are capable of hiding from one another? To date, we haven't witnessed any evidence of Ascians possessing some kind of "Ascian sense" to identify each other. It could well be that while wearing a human's skin, an Ascian looks just like a human, even to other Ascians. I think it's quite possible - even likely - that Varis is Ascian-possessed, and hiding that fact from Elidibus. As long as Varis keeps spouting Varis-like lines, like "Man's destiny is his own," Elidibus will be none the wiser...

I just have a hard time believing that they would be able to hide completely if they take over a human skin. Also Solus did say that Varis would be important on the source and Solus on the first, so I believe it way more that Solus will just be the main bad guy in the next expansion, doing stuff on the first and that Varis just finally completely snapped or just shows his true colors.