Dispensers of fiery explosions, light me up... with your ideas for BLM in 5.0

[Kalise]

On the note of people caring about high numbers, people want to see high numbers and play the jobs that they want to play.

If the job they want to play happens to be NIN/DRG/BRD/SMN then sure.

Ignore the fact that BLM/SAM/MNK/MCH/RDM all do more personal DPS than 3-4 of those jobs but are all relegated to the "We don't really want you" bargain bin with the only exception being RDM during progression for the raise-spam.

The fact is, that the people who care about numbers, don't care what they play so long as their party is doing the most output. That is why those jobs that aren't conducive to maximum party damage, happen to also be some of the least popular (The only outlier is RDM, but it gets inflated usage thanks to being the best DPS for Eureka due to self healing and raise-spamming)

All of this is why raw damage as utility is bad design.

Though, you've not really proven that "Raw damage as utility" is inherently bad design.

All you've proven (Also, all I've eluded to with my statement around building the group around BLM) is that the current balancing of raw damage vs utility doesn't work.

Which doesn't actually exclude the potential balancing where BLM/SAM/MCH/MNK get more damage to balance out their limited utility so that overall party DPS is more equivalent irregardless of composition, outside some focusing of synergies (I.e. Like going ham on a BLM with a SMN in the party. Or bringing a SCH, BRD and DRG to buff up the crit chance of a MNK to get those sweet Chakra. Or bringing a DRG to your MCH + BRD team for the Piercing debuff)

It merely means that, being slightly above the damage of SMN that also has utility in the form of Contagion to further buff tDPS is not actually balanced.

[Gallus]

Just 2 things:

1 - More mobility
2 - Less strict timers

I mean right now like 80% of your rotation consist on hardcasted fire IV which take a while, this is pretty devastating while handling mechanics.

And I don't like how your AF can run out arguably easy if anything happens to interrupt that fire and completely mess up your entire rotation. The other classes don't have to deal with stuff like this, SAM letters don't go anywhere if you stop hitting xD, or RDM black and white magic does not drop if any of your casts is interrupted. I like BLM but they made this class so inconvenient to play while handling mechanics it's not even funny, like hey, it's still possible, just 4 times harder for no reason than doing it with any other class.

[Archwizard]

I think in an ideal world, a class' utility would be weighed not against its damage, but against... well, its other utility. The things they do outside of just the necessities of their role.

Or to explain myself better: Think of the divide between the healer classes as we currently have them. SCH has the highest direct damage as a DPS hybrid but also brings barrier effects to keep up with encounter demands, AST has the strongest group enhancement via its cards and most versatility with its stances, and WHM has the best... direct healing, which while good for large hits, is often considered problematic due to the limits of overhealing, its longer base cast times, its reliance on long CDs for basically anything else (thanks, Lily Gauge), and its lack of tools for scenarios that could one-shot any given party member.
In an ideal world, the question wouldn't be the value of their healing effects; as long as the total value of healing (and absorption) is evenly distributed between the three then any of the three could meet the necessities of an encounter. "Big heals" versus "absorption" should be part of how they do what they do, maybe better for specific fights but not deterministic in itself of general value.
What should set them apart would be the value of what they can do outside of just their healing -- SCH's damage, AST's buff variety, and... something for WHM.
Or just shuffle things around so WHM had superior damage output between its elemental spells, while SCH had better vulnerability debuffs to go with its DoTs.

If we look at the history of the Summoner and Red Mage across the series as a whole, there is a wide variety of areas they dip into by virtue of their hybrid natures -- damage, buffing, healing, things they could do that no other caster could. Their identities have always been so broad that they're oft mechanically unrecognizable between entries.
Black Mage, meanwhile, has a much more distinctive identity that has fallen in its entirety across a few highly-focused categories:

• Dealing slow, heavy burst damage (often with the intent to exploit elemental vulnerabilities); the Ravager
• Debilitating enemies, often via the use of status ailments like Sleep, Confuse or Slow; the Saboteur
• Directly enhancing group damage through effects such as Aura, Haste or Berserk; the Synergist
• Selfish enhancements to sustain their own output, like Saber or Osmose

Now, if I were to read this description of a Black Mage, my first thought would for a utility not be "Apocatastasis" or "Mana Wall". If I were to assume a caster who enhanced survivability, I'd think one of the classic white magic-wielding hybrids.
Knowing as I do that many of its classic de/buffs have since become the purview of other classes (particularly Time Mage/Astrologian), and that crowd control effects are virtually unmentionable in a raid scenario, my assumption for BLM would either be some kind of double-edged enhancement on party members ("power comes with a price"), or somehow making an enemy more vulnerable (eg curses). Y'know. Black magic.
Then I would argue for distribution of survival-enhancing effects and sweeping group damage buffs on the other two classes. Since both already have healing effects that fall under "survival enhancement", I would include the weighted values of their healing as part of their utility, and suggest for the one with worse healing to have better enhancement (surprise, Vercure already scales with Int while Embolden sucks next to anything SMN brings). But I would still call for BLM to have its own benefits as well, knowing full-well its healing and group survival tools should be virtually nonexistent.

In fact, if anything I would argue BLM is more deserving of a general group buff than SMN or RDM, owing to the greater difficulty it has in inflicting its ostensibly higher damage.

[Lauront]

A bit OT but it'd make sense for SCH to be the debuffer, given its emphasis on strategy, and WHM the big (in healer terms) damage dealer.

Regarding survivability, I think the issue is not so much with having any but with the fact that the current form of it is just a barrier. It's handy because it allows you to take a bit more damage in some scenarios and avoid having to move, however if I were to think of the job's classic "defensive" spells, they're more offensive in nature, like Reflect or Return Magic, as well as some offensive spells like Drain - ironically, in the SMN repertoire.

Putting aside raid encounter mechanics, it is the type of job that protects itself by debuffing its foes so they either are unable to act or too slow to do much harm to it - this is easier to implement in PVP and solo PVE content, but for a variety of reasons it is poorly implemented in the former and situational in the latter. I wouldn't mind if Manawall became a role action or even got moved elsewhere, so long as BLM received compensating defensive utility in other forms, including revising Aetherial Manipulation to make it more like Blink and also perhaps confer some advantages when using it over and above just re-positioning.

As long as they balance damage with the job's effective uptime, and not just having any utility, in mind, it is fine. If they make raises a role action I think the argument for nerfing damage on the basis of one (again, doesn't seem to be the case) evaporates.

[Kalise]

as well as some offensive spells like Drain - ironically, in the SMN repertoire.

Drain is actually a Role Action.

It's just so pathetically undertuned as to be useless.

I recently did my Relic quest for BLM and went and solo'd RR: Hydra and Ifrit (As well as Chimera/Garuda but they're pushovers)

Not only was this feat like 100x more challenging than anything in Masked Carnivale (Uh oh, better make BLM a Limited Job and make Relics Limited Job only!!!)

But it really showed just how bad Drain is even in a situation where survival is important. Where even spamming the skill like 20-30 times still didn't restore a meaningful amount of health and literally the best way to survive through this sort of incoming damage was just hope you live long enough for Manaward to come back up while you explode the boss fast enough to make them go into phase transitions that prevent damage for a period of time (As well as making sure to immune Fear Itself via having Manaward active to prevent the fear effect)

But I digress... The SMN (Well, ARC as it's then also shared by SCH too) action is Energy Drain rather than just Drain

[Lauront]

Yeah, I discount that one due to how useless it is. I meant Energy Drain. HP and mana leeching spells fit well within BLM repertoire. So does Shadowflare, not sure how that one ended up in theirs.

[Llugen]

I suppose if "you have to play this class perfectly optimally and if you die your contribution is lost so we're just going to count on all BLMs being bad and block them out of the party finder, besides we want to have recovery tools and get fed with contagion/aetherpact" doesn't count as proof to you then idk what to tell you.

I used some well-timed drains to solo T8 on my BLM, it's obviously not great but it's something more than nothing. Was very helpful in soloing fates at the top of the expansion with the chocobo also.

To be clear I don't think all actions should always be 100% useful all the time. I think I said it earlier in this thread but the binds and sleep have their niche uses. There's no reason to get rid of them just because you don't use them every fight. Let's be honest, would you really even WANT to use them every fight if you had to..? I'd hate that.

[Kalise]

Yeah, I discount that one due to how useless it is. I meant Energy Drain. HP and mana leeching spells fit well within BLM repertoire. So does Shadowflare, not sure how that one ended up in theirs.

I assume it's because a majority of the skills that were originally for Thaumaturge in 1.0 were cut out and either removed from the game completely (Such as Banish, Necrogenesis, Sanguine Rite, Dark Seal, Resonance, Excruciate, Burst) or redistributed across White Mage/SMN/Astrologian...

Maybe we could see Necrogenesis come back in some form (Basically, Bloodbath but for spells. Back in 1.0 they both only worked on your next attack... But given that BB now works for a set duration, maybe something similar occurs here)

Also, if we're talking about trying to bring back some old skills and/or add in some utility for BLM, the aforementioned removed from game completely actions include some interesting effects.

Sanguine Rite providing MP based on damage taken, with a later trait to give it DR effect.

Dark Seal increased accuracy of the next attack.

Resonance increased range of the next attack.

Excruciate granted an increasing crit chance until a critical hit occurred (Think a reverse Embolden but that was removed upon landing a crit. Or essentially pseudo-random crit chance)

Also, Convert used to switch HP and MP values

Freeze used to be an enmity quell action.

Flare used to do more damage based on proximity and have a chance to leave a DoT effect.

Thunder used to be a combo action going Thunder > Thundara > Thundaga > Burst

Some neat stuff back in 1.0 to be honest.

I mean, checking over some of the old skills... Man, Warrior's Rampage and Berserk mechanic as well as their Godsbane skill sound pretty darn sweet too bad they're now just Fell Cleave bots... >.>

I suppose if "you have to play this class perfectly optimally and if you die your contribution is lost"

Everyone has to play their class optimally to achieve their benefit.

If a NIN misses their Trick Attack positional and it doesn't grant the debuff, their entire justification is lost. For example.

Also, if anyone dies, their contribution is lost. Unless you mean to tell me that Bards continue singing their songs while they're dead?

You also talk about recovery tools and death when SMN is punished ridiculously hard if they die, because it resets their Bahamut burst window back to the beginning which means 2+ minutes before they can activate it again (Meanwhile, BLM doesn't even care about low MP upon being raised... They just head back into UI fill up in 2 GCD's and then continue blasting away with Fire IV's. At best, they lose some Polyglot progress)

[Lauront]

To be clear I don't think all actions should always be 100% useful all the time. I think I said it earlier in this thread but the binds and sleep have their niche uses. There's no reason to get rid of them just because you don't use them every fight. Let's be honest, would you really even WANT to use them every fight if you had to..? I'd hate that.

At the same time their frame of mind for ability design is to work towards a fixed number of abilities, to keep button bloat at a minimum, so if you have role actions like Drain which are borderline useless, they're ripe for pruning or rework/consolidation when the time comes to add new abilities.

*snip*

I wasn't even aware of those. Necrogenesis would be awesome, as would Excruciate. I agree that it sounds pretty neat - how did the Thunder combo thing work specifically?

[Kalise]

how did the Thunder combo thing work specifically?

Thunder
Cast Time: 2s
CD: 6s
Deals Lightning Damage to a target.

Thundara
CD: 30s
Duration: 4s
Deals Lightning Damage to a target. Chance to inflict Stun.
Combo Action: Thunder
Combo Bonus: Increased damage and reduced CD when Stun not inflicted.

Thundaga
Cast Time: 5s
CD: 45s
Deals Lightning damage to target.
Combo Action: Thundara
Combo Bonus: Increased Critical Damage.

Burst
CD: 900s
Deals Lightning damage to target.
Combo Action: Thundaga
Combo Bonus: Deals increased damage the lower your current HP is.

Take their CD's with a grain of salt, as these were the norm back then. Warrior's "All yo stuff is crits" move also had a 15 minute CD (Since reduced by a factor of 10 down to 90s) for example.

But yeah... There it is. In all its jank.

Your main rotation would be using Thunder (Which was the level 1 skill), Blizzard and Fire (Which was a line of AoE's). All of which combo'd into their upgraded variants (Blizzara. Fira, Firaga)

Interestingly enough, Firaga has a longer cast time than its CD... 8s Cast, 7s CD

Not sure if Blizzaga ever made it into the game though...