Why Does A Fierce Race Of Female Warriors...

[Jaywalker]

No need to apologize for jumping in when you have something to say, this is an open discussion after all.

I get where you're coming from about the agency of the characters, but the neither the Viera nor any female character in this game is shown to lack agency. You might say Nanamo, but her's is a situation of story context. She lacks power because of Ul'dah's economics not because anyone is holding her down. The Viera are shown to be a strong hunter/warrior race and not victims of oppression and discrimination. Maybe they embrace their sexuality like Bayonetta, or maybe they don't even consider the concept of sexuality the same as we do. The only one's who do know are the devs and part of me believes they don't think that far into things.

I also take issue with how "fanservice" has been boiled down to simply the inclusion of T&A when it is so much more than that.

Other than that, thanks for the motivation and support!

Thanks! And no prob on motivation/support, go kick butt!

I actually figure Nanamo's fine tbh lol. Her situation's limiting, but I think it matters that how she deals with her situation is a choice and understood as such. If she despaired and decided to live day-by-day in excess while ignoring her people, that would make her tragic. Maybe even a tragic villain, depending. She could also have been tragic if she was so ignorant and helpless she remained a passive and childlike puppet incapable of surviving independently, particularly if it was shown in-story that she could not manage outside a gilded cage. As is, she fights her situation and develops herself into a capable ruler in her own right. None of the three possibilities demonstrate lack of agency/choice on a technical, storytelling level. It's just that some would be shown as personally weak and some are personally strong. People are like that. Figure everyone regardless of gender has the capacity to be personally strong or weak, but that doesn't make any ineffective as characters.

One way to think of it is you could have a three different characters trapped in featureless rooms by themselves and unable to escape, but what they choose to do with themselves even while being stuck like that is still a choice that says something about them. When I talk about agency, I just mean that there's a reason that can be understood in human terms. Genre conventions, humor, and parody are fine reasons too but there are still ways those reasons can work or fall flat.

When it comes to the Viera, I file them mainly under genre conventions because FFXIV (and FF games as a whole) tend to run on rule of aesthetic/"it just looks good". Doesn't necessarily make sense and is generally applied pretty evenly across the board. If it was a more realistic game where you got more detailed characterization from what characters choose to put on their bodies in different places/situations, that might be subject to some criticism. Under the circumstances doesn't seem like a problem to me. The genre conventions here are consistent in how they suspend disbelief so don't necessarily need to bring up stuff about how warriors in hot climates wear less, even if that is true. FFXIV warriors wear bathingsuits in Coerthas.

Lol I am with you on there being more to fanservice than T&A, the cases I was referring to just happened to involve that kind of fanservice. Also, I think it's worth noting there's a difference between say, artistic nudes (even with conventionally sexy bodies) and fanservice imo. Posture, presentation, atmosphere, context, all that ties in. T&A is just the best shorthand I've got for "this character is pulling contortionist moves to show both off at the same time" lol.

[Joven]

Thanks! And no prob on motivation/support, go kick butt!

I actually figure Nanamo's fine tbh lol. Her situation's limiting, but I think it matters that how she deals with her situation is a choice and understood as such. If she despaired and decided to live day-by-day in excess while ignoring her people, that would make her tragic. Maybe even a tragic villain, depending. She could also have been tragic if she was so ignorant and helpless she remained a passive and childlike puppet incapable of surviving independently, particularly if it was shown in-story that she could not manage outside a gilded cage. As is, she fights her situation and develops herself into a capable ruler in her own right. None of the three possibilities demonstrate lack of agency/choice on a technical, storytelling level. It's just that some would be shown as personally weak and some are personally strong. People are like that. Figure everyone regardless of gender has the capacity to be personally strong or weak, but that doesn't make any ineffective as characters.

One way to think of it is you could have a three different characters trapped in featureless rooms by themselves and unable to escape, but what they choose to do with themselves even while being stuck like that is still a choice that says something about them. When I talk about agency, I just mean that there's a reason that can be understood in human terms. Genre conventions, humor, and parody are fine reasons too but there are still ways those reasons can work or fall flat.

If Nanamo decided to live in spendor due to her circumstances while her people suffered I'd call her a b***h not tragic. Fortunately she is exerting what messure of control she has through Raubahn to change things. And it helps that she's just so darned adorable.

Yotsuyu comes to mind as someone who profited off of their situation. She tries to play the "woe is me" angle to garner sympathy, even at the end. I felt bad for what she went through, but instead of using that to become a stronger person she gave into hatred and spite. So at the end when she was complaining about her situation all I could think of was "you's a ho".

When it comes to the Viera, I file them mainly under genre conventions because FFXIV (and FF games as a whole) tend to run on rule of aesthetic/"it just looks good". Doesn't necessarily make sense and is generally applied pretty evenly across the board. If it was a more realistic game where you got more detailed characterization from what characters choose to put on their bodies in different places/situations, that might be subject to some criticism. Under the circumstances doesn't seem like a problem to me. The genre conventions here are consistent in how they suspend disbelief so don't necessarily need to bring up stuff about how warriors in hot climates wear less, even if that is true. FFXIV warriors wear bathingsuits in Coerthas.

I agree, there seems to be a lack of understanding in some peoples arguments I've seen where they can't distinguish between "this is a video game so I should be able to do what I want" and "what makes sense within the context of the world I'm in". Some argue that just because the devs allow certain, non world building items (like Cloud's bike or the upcoming Regalia) then everything is fair game for whatever. I guess that's just the nature of the beast.

Lol I am with you on there being more to fanservice than T&A, the cases I was referring to just happened to involve that kind of fanservice. Also, I think it's worth noting there's a difference between say, artistic nudes (even with conventionally sexy bodies) and fanservice imo. Posture, presentation, atmosphere, context, all that ties in. T&A is just the best shorthand I've got for "this character is pulling contortionist moves to show both off at the same time" lol.

LOL, I'm with you on that, unecessarily sexy posing is really hamfisting that kind of fanservice. Though to be honest it can serve to break a tense situation if you feel your story is getting too serious. Kill la Kill is a good example of that.

[Jaywalker]

If Nanamo decided to live in spendor due to her circumstances while her people suffered I'd call her a b***h not tragic.

I think it depends a bit on circumstances. Could full well turn tragic bitch haha, but I think the tragic part comes from how much she cares and whether her behavior is because she legit is convinced she's incapable of doing anything to help and how she hit that point. If she doesn't care and is just unapologetically going "let them eat cake" that's full-villain to me. I was thinking cares-but-learned-helplessness. Agreed as she actually is Nanamo is adorable and heroic tho!

Yotsuyu I think is tragic too, def tragic villain. Or tragic bitch, both work.

Haven't seen Kill la Kill but I get you! And agreed on the videogame fun versus worldbuilding context.

[Joven]

I think it depends a bit on circumstances. Could full well turn tragic bitch haha, but I think the tragic part comes from how much she cares and whether her behavior is because she legit is convinced she's incapable of doing anything to help and how she hit that point. If she doesn't care and is just unapologetically going "let them eat cake" that's full-villain to me. I was thinking cares-but-learned-helplessness. Agreed as she actually is Nanamo is adorable and heroic tho!

Yotsuyu I think is tragic too, def tragic villain. Or tragic bitch, both work.

I guess it comes down to personal perspective as to how they're viewed. I can't consider anyone who uses their stituation as a means to garner sympathy in order to get what they want and failed as "tragic". If they used their situation as motivation to better themselves and failed, then I would consider them tragic, but that's just me. I've had to pull myself up by my bootstraps with little to no support before so I'm kind of jaded in that regard.

[Jaywalker]

I guess it comes down to personal perspective as to how they're viewed. I can't consider anyone who uses their stituation as a means to garner sympathy in order to get what they want and failed as "tragic". If they used their situation as motivation to better themselves and failed, then I would consider them tragic, but that's just me. I've had to pull myself up by my bootstraps with little to no support before so I'm kind of jaded in that regard.

Fair enough! I didn't really see it as trying to use a messed up situation as an attempt to get sympathy as the means to an end then failed. With Yotsuyu, think she was frustrated and in despair/feeling isolated and with no way to change that. Probably jealous too, in a "why couldn't I have had anything good and meaningful/why do the people of Doma who let this happen to me get loved ones when I don't" way. What she did was still flat out monstrous and she didn't have to go down the road she did, but the underlying reason is still tragic imo. Hypothetical!Nanamo giving up and just pretending the bad things going on that she feels are out of her control aren't happening doesn't seem like looking for sympathy either, just kind of sad and a person falling to weakness to me. How much sympathy we feel is subjective though.

A tragic character to me comes from having a really innocent or noble hope/aspiration destroyed or twisted into something horrible. Doesn't make the result less terrible, but there's a loss involved. There are people who are just selfish or apathetic to others, imo that's different and wouldn't count as tragic.

[Joven]

Fair enough! I didn't really see it as trying to use a messed up situation as an attempt to get sympathy as the means to an end then failed. With Yotsuyu, think she was frustrated and in despair/feeling isolated and with no way to change that. Probably jealous too, in a "why couldn't I have had anything good and meaningful/why do the people of Doma who let this happen to me get loved ones when I don't" way. What she did was still flat out monstrous and she didn't have to go down the road she did, but the underlying reason is still tragic imo. Hypothetical!Nanamo giving up and just pretending the bad things going on that she feels are out of her control aren't happening doesn't seem like looking for sympathy either, just kind of sad and a person falling to weakness to me. How much sympathy we feel is subjective though.

A tragic character to me comes from having a really innocent or noble hope/aspiration destroyed or twisted into something horrible. Doesn't make the result less terrible, but there's a loss involved. There are people who are just selfish or apathetic to others, imo that's different and wouldn't count as tragic.

Sorry, I was getting fictional reality mixed with actual reality for a moment. Yotsuyu's character development to the player was meant to come off as tragic with her constant referrals to what she went through as a kid. Which, due to personal perspective, I didn't find particularly tragic. But in the story sense she is definitely a tragic character or tragic villain. I would have liked to see a redemption arc that typically defines the end of a tragic villain, like Darth Vader had, but sadly we didn't get one.

[Daralii]

Sorry, I was getting fictional reality mixed with actual reality for a moment. Yotsuyu's character development to the player was meant to come off as tragic with her constant referrals to what she went through as a kid. Which, due to personal perspective, I didn't find particularly tragic. But in the story sense she is definitely a tragic character or tragic villain. I would have liked to see a redemption arc that typically defines the end of a tragic villain, like Darth Vader had, but sadly we didn't get one.

I dunno, killing Asahi was pretty commendable.