Gender-locking isn't sexist

[Greven]

I actually DO want Male Viera and Female Hrothgar, i think its only right that these are added. But i also feel it is unfair to blindly accuse the devs of Sexism and so i shared my thoughts on that aspect of the situation.

What the petition this thread is promoting is not to declare genderlock not sexist, but to prevent genderlock to be removed. Not everyone think it's sexist, I never see one death threat and nobody could proof anything but this doesn't matter to OP, the only thing he wants is to go against other people requests and he uses those as excuses to explain a deliberately mean and selfish behaviour. I don't know about the others 50 people but I hope they at least read what they sign.

[Alucard135]

There's nothing wrong with a reasonable deviation that reflects the difference in male and female form. The keyword there is reasonable. In the USA the average height for females is around 5'4". For males, its around 5'9". That's a whopping difference of 5 inches, not even half a foot. And if you're wondering the average height for men in Japan is 5'7", while for women it is 5'2". Again, a difference of 5 inches.

So now reasonable deviation is OK, which is something you didn't mention before in your definition. So who gets to decide what's reasonable and what's not? If a certain race in a fantasy game had it's females much shorter than their males, then the developers are sexist? But if they made both male and females as sexy as possible with then that's not?? (I hope you see the irony here lol).

And don't even think about pretending like the difference between female Viera and male Hrothgar is a meager 30 lbs. There is no place in the world where the men are gigantic, hulked out beasts like Hrothgar while women are are much more slender and lithe like Viera.

You know what else is not in the world? moogles lol. Did you know that other animals in the world can have extreme dimorphism? The male orangutan not only looks different, but also weighs double that of the female weight (80lbs differences). So game devs in a fantasy game now must not create a race that doesn't follow the same variance as in humans? In that case also, your previous definition is unacceptable, since naturally the variance is always there. So removing that variance or reducing it as much as possible is unnatural in humans.

Yet they assume what players want is gigantic, bestial men and slender, elegant women. These extremely exaggerated, stereotypical presentations of men and women stem from societal sexism and, big surprise, people are tired of it.

Those are two different races, why are you comparing them as if they're the same race? And they didn't assume as I said, they said it was from feedback. And you say people are tired of it? I wonder why female roes are the least playable race. The race that doesn't follow the extremely exaggerated, stereotypical presentations of women, but the female races that do, are the most played.

Also, one wonders why we didn't hear those screams about sexism when you literally can't find a female Lupin or male Anantas (and other opposite genders in some beast tribes). It is as if these screaming sexism now thought they could get what they want by using that word out of its place thinking that will force SE to do it. Seems like it's only sexist if it's in character creation lol.

[Physic]

sexism is defined by making stereotypes based on gender.
making 2 new races forcing you to either choose a sexy, skimpy clothed female, or a huge hunched beast male, IS sexist by definition. those 2 are gender stereotypes. and forcing you to only choose those (for the new races) is sexist. no other way to put it.

if there is only two new races, by definition they will be one trope or another. Its kind of offensive that you think the existence of large males is sexist. Its not. Also, the fact that these are not the only races in the game invalidates the argument.

these are just options out of many, there are a bunch of males that are close to the probable vierra, but there is only one large stocky male (large stocky males are not inherently sexist, or over represented)

[Josco]

Okay, but the reality is that this is a game that has a (presumably) cis, straight white male as the lead character (Warrior of light). The majority of guild leadership is male, and even when it isn't, the storyline usually involves the male who is supposed to be in charge but isn't for whatever reason...<clipped>

We're talking about a game that has a whole lot of sexism and enforced gender-roles in general that is maybe completely invisible to some of you....<clipped>

This problem is bigger than just this one thing.

Where to start...the WoL/D is YOUR character. The dude in the trailers is a placeholder for your character. They only had 2 choices for said placeholder, so if you're offended they went with "male," I don't know what to tell you.

That said, are we going to forget the fact that all 3 heads of state of the big 3 city-states are female, the leader of the scions is female for a majority of the story, and Hydaelyn, the embodiment of the Light, is identified as female? I guess we should also forget there is a storyline where you help overthrow a jerk arrogant dude and place a humble, wise woman in his place. His main rival and leader of the other clan was also female. To boot, said jerk hits on a main female protagonist and is rejected in a most humiliating and hilarious fashion.

Respectfully, I think some people are combing through the game in search of offense. Confirmation bias is real.

[Physic]

A lesser demand, and there is always going to be a demand for a lot of things. We can't have everything, but no matter what we get there should always be gender parity.


There's nothing wrong with a reasonable deviation that reflects the difference in male and female form. The keyword there is reasonable. In the USA the average height for females is around 5'4". For males, its around 5'9". That's a whopping difference of 5 inches, not even half a foot. And if you're wondering the average height for men in Japan is 5'7", while for women it is 5'2". Again, a difference of 5 inches.

Some quick google searching also tells us that the average weight for men in the USA is around 195 lbs. Average weight for women in the USA is 168 lbs. For Japan the men average 146 lbs while women average 114 lbs. This is around a 30 lb difference for both regions, which is nowhere near as exaggerated as male and female Au Ra. And don't even think about pretending like the difference between female Viera and male Hrothgar is a meager 30 lbs. There is no place in the world where the men are gigantic, hulked out beasts like Hrothgar while women are are much more slender and lithe like Viera.

Yet they assume what players want is gigantic, bestial men and slender, elegant women. These extremely exaggerated, stereotypical presentations of men and women stem from societal sexism and, big surprise, people are tired of it.

dude you are crazy. dont compare reality with fantasy in terms of real proportions/height. First of all large men are not a common male stereotypes. go look at idealized males, you will see more midlander types and elezen than roedegayn. To me it just feels like you are persecuting large stocky males based on your own bias. You are also acting like female viera and male hroth are one race, they are not. But even if they were, races arent just based on humans, and sexual dimorphism exists in nature all the time.


i feel like way too much of your perceptions and analyses are based on your real world perspectives and biases. This is fantasy, lion men dont exist in the real world. Large stocky males had the lowest in game race representation. Roedagayn are not some pervasive male fantasy, they are the least played race.


you could argue against vierra, but guess what, they are literally only there to please the playerbase. Turns out the players are what are driving the desire for elegant females, and it also appears they want just as many unrealistic elegant and prettified males. In the world of FF the prettified elegant male is the stereotype/pervasive fantasy that oppresses other designs/possibilities

they are not ideal, they are not over represented, they are

[J-Reyno]

So now reasonable deviation is OK, which is something you didn't mention before in your definition. So who gets to decide what's reasonable and what's not? If a certain race in a fantasy game had it's females much shorter than their males, then the developers are sexist? But if they made both male and females as sexy as possible with then that's not?? (I hope you see the irony here lol).

There is a difference between male and female form, but there is also a well-documented societal norm of portraying men as hypermasculine and women as hyperfeminine well beyond the typical deviation. You may not like the word but this manner of gender discrimination and stereotyping is inarguably sexism.

Did you know that other animals in the world can have extreme dimorphism? The male orangutan not only looks different, but also weighs double that of the female weight (80lbs differences). So game devs in a fantasy game now must not create a race that doesn't follow the same variance as in humans?

Did you know that for some species, the females are larger than the males? That won't ever happen for a playable race in FFXIV. We would never get the gender reverse of Au Ra. Why? Because of sexism and gender stereotypes.

Those are two different races, why are you comparing them as if they're the same race?

I am comparing the options that we were given as players between hypermasculine bestial male Hrothgar and lithe, alluring and elegant female Viera. We have once again been presented with exaggerated, stereotypical presentations of men and women.

I wonder why female roes are the least playable race. The race that doesn't follow the extremely exaggerated, stereotypical presentations of women, but the female races that do, are the most played.

Counterpoint: the smaller male races are far more popular than the bigger ones. Miqo, midlander and Lalafell outnumber the other males. Roegadyn are the least played by far. So according to you it would have made the most sense to give us both female Viera AND men.

And of course, that didn't happen for reasons stated above.

[Alucard135]

There is a difference between male and female form, but there is also a well-documented societal norm of portraying men as hypermasculine and women as hyperfeminine well beyond the typical deviation. You may not like the word but this manner of gender discrimination and stereotyping is inarguably sexism.

But it's not sexism when both male and females are made as sexy as possible to look like models?

Did you know that for some species, the females are larger than the males? That won't ever happen for a playable race in FFXIV. We would never get the gender reverse of Au Ra. Why? Because of sexism and gender stereotypes.

According to you, the reverse is also sexist. So why do you want it?

I am comparing the options that we were given as players between hypermasculine bestial male Hrothgar and lithe, alluring and elegant female Viera. We have once again been presented with exaggerated, stereotypical presentations of men and women.

Your comparison should be same race based. Why not compare female lalas to male roes now lol? Those options are given by player demand. It doesn't mean they created Hrothgar as counterpart to Viera.

Counterpoint: the smaller male races are far more popular than the bigger ones. Miqo, midlander and Lalafell outnumber the other males. Roegadyn are the least played by far. So according to you it would have made the most sense to give us both female Viera AND men.

You seem to not have understood my point. You stated that people don't want the stereotypical representation. The female Roe that doesn't follow that is the least played. And the races you stated that don't follow the hulky male type that you're against are the most played. So which is it? do people want the type that follows or the type that doesn't follow said stereotypes??

[Physic]

There is a difference between male and female form, but there is also a well-documented societal norm of portraying men as hypermasculine and women as hyperfeminine well beyond the typical deviation. You may not like the word but this manner of gender discrimination and stereotyping is inarguably sexism.


Did you know that for some species, the females are larger than the males? That won't ever happen for a playable race in FFXIV. We would never get the gender reverse of Au Ra. Why? Because of sexism and gender stereotypes.


I am comparing the options that we were given as players between hypermasculine bestial male Hrothgar and lithe, alluring and elegant female Viera. We have once again been presented with exaggerated, stereotypical presentations of men and women.


Counterpoint: the smaller male races are far more popular than the bigger ones. Miqo, midlander and Lalafell outnumber the other males. Roegadyn are the least played by far. So according to you it would have made the most sense to give us both female Viera AND men.

And of course, that didn't happen for reasons stated above.

if you believe in diversity, choice, and avoiding stereotypes, in this case its male and female hrothgar.

As i said before, you are mixing worlds, you are conflating your contempoary american culture focused world with ffxiv/world and culture.

large superbig and powerful males are not common male fantasy, even in america, it was essentially only a thing in the late 80-90s

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-...huge-muscles-8

so, your whole concept of hyper masculine ideals dominating the culture is not current, mostly just american, and clearly not a thing in FF. the reality is that the idealized human form is always changing. The game is literally just trying to give options.

if you really want to represent against idealized norms, you should be campaining for charachters with body fat, there is virtually no even slightly fat charachters in ffxiv.

but i think your prefered goal is a prettier cuter male population.

[Canadane]

It's not sexist, but it is regressive and feels cheap.

Regressive in what way? We got two new races. We're progressing in variance. This is more variance than one race with two genders would be.

[SieyaM]

While I will admit that some people who are wanting the inclusion of male Viera and female Hrothgar are kind of rabid, this post and petition just screams of "I got what I want so everyone else should also be happy". Just because you aren't disappointed doesn't mean everyone else isn't. Really what you're petitioning for is no player feedback and blind devotion and worship to the development team.