I'm thinking Dark Knight's rework will be more extensive than I initially thought.

[Izsha]

Dread spikes only worked while being hit on a class that rarely ever tanked and blood weapon was a 2hr recast ability that lasted for 30 sec. Xi drk was all about deleting its defense and sacrificing its hp to deal damage as its role as a damage dealer which just wont really pass in this game as a tank. The other major aspect was as an absortion/stealing class. It temporarily stole mp, tp, str/dex/mnd/etc, hp, and more from monsters and gave those stats to itself. Which also doesnt translate with SE making bosses immune to debuffs.

XIs drk just doesnt work in a triad based scripted encounter game like 14, and even less so because they made it a tank. There is a reason se explicitly said this will be a different type of drk than fans may be accustomed too. The traditional drk mechanics of low defense, hp sacrifice for damage, (and later in xi), stat stealer dont work in this game where enfeebled basically dont exist and drk is a tank.

14 does base a ton of this game on Xi, but drk isnt one or those things.

[Lyth]

In FFXI, PLD's invincible (Hallowed Ground) had a 1 hour recast. You don't have to transcribe everything word for word.

Doing damage in exchange for HP has issues on dps jobs, in that the resource cost of the ability gets paid by your healer. That's why even when you see these sorts of abilities (like BLM's Convert), they're on a fairly long recast. This becomes even more of a complex issue when you allow a tank to do it, because they are exposed to more consistent damage. But that's a completely different issue from Lifesteal. Your entire discussion on XI's DRK is a strawman (unsurprisingly).

[Izsha]

Hallowed ground isnt an identity and pulling blood weapon (which they already did) isnt either. You have repeatedly called back to xis drk to give 14s drk its identity. My post is simply pointing out that the identity of xis drk is plainly incompatible with 14. You want a lifesteal tank, but keep trying to use xi to justify it when Xis drk was neither a tank, a lifesteal class, or compatible with 14.

If you want a lifesteal tank, to each there own. I dont think that is enough of an 'identity' as many have already pointed out, but you can want what you want. Most lifesteal tanks have that as a single aspect that is part of a larger theme. Death knights arent just life steal. They are death knights. Pld isnt just hallowed. It's a paladin and hallowed is 1 thing that supports their identity. I dont think drk should be restricted to 'lifesteal guy'. But if that fits with the theme and kit of the class, theres nothing wrong with it, but a central focus probably not.

A mechanic isnt an identity. It should be 1 piece of an integrated kit.

[Shurrikhan]

In FFXI, PLD's invincible (Hallowed Ground) had a 1 hour recast. You don't have to transcribe everything word for word.

Doing damage in exchange for HP has issues on dps jobs, in that the resource cost of the ability gets paid by your healer. That's why even when you see these sorts of abilities (like BLM's Convert), they're on a fairly long recast. This becomes even more of a complex issue when you allow a tank to do it, because they are exposed to more consistent damage. But that's a completely different issue from Lifesteal.

Yes and no. A tank will already be absorbing heals at some given rate. Spending/restoring HP on a tank, therefore, is far less abusable than on a DPS so long as (1) healer direct damage is worth more than the tank damage enabled by initial healing or (2) the reward for spending HP is purely defensive. Consistent damage is rarely an issue for any tank, in any MMO. Being able to spend during lulls in damage intake in order to restore during spikes in damage intake would be very useful.

But agreed, life-tapping and lifestealing are very different things, and one doesn't need one to have the other. I do, however, think that extent of interaction could finally help lifesteal, as a mechanic, feel deep enough to approach a satisfying theme, so they shouldn't necessarily be detached from each other just because one part is technically disadvantageous in and of itself. That allows the balancing positive to be more potent, after all.

[Lyth]

...

No. I'm referencing XI as an example of how lifesteal could work on DRK in an MMO environment. This isn't rocket science. A surprising number of DRK's abilities in XIV reference the XI skillset. As an example, it wouldn't take much of a redesign to make Blood Weapon give you a bit of baseline lifesteal. The ability is in both games. There are other examples that you could draw on from the series, but it makes more sense to start by looking at what we already have, instead of proposing the introduction of several completely new actions.

It's easy to claim that something "is not an identity" without providing an actual example or criteria that defines what an identity actually is.

PLD's shield forms a core part of its identity. You can argue that "block isn't an identity, it's a mechanic". That's true, viewed in isolation. But there's more to it than that. You build gauge in Shield Oath by blocking. You have an ability that lets you counterattack after you block. You have moves that adjust your block rate. You have abilities which allow you to take damage in place of an ally, gaining more block procs in the process. Your signature move this expansion lets you stand in front of the group, shield outstretched, to defend your team. The shield is a part of your identity.

With DRK, the groundwork is already there. We use tools like Blood Weapon to steal MP, and then expend that MP to do damage. The currency has changed compared to previous games (MP instead of HP), but the concept remains the same. The resource stealing theme just needs to be fleshed out some, and lifesteal is simply an extension of an existing theme. You need more ways to steal resources, and more interplay between them (blood in particular is underutilised). These things also need to not be gated behind an unwanted stance.

DRK needs an identity. If you have a better idea for DRK, then let's hear it.

[Shurrikhan]

It's easy to claim that something "is not an identity" without providing an actual example or criteria that defines what an identity actually is.

Why should the burden of proof lie with someone not convinced that, as per the norm, a single mechanic does not an identity make? That's not so much a claim as it is a matter "you've yet to show me how that would be sufficient"?
If you've not provided significant context or synergy for the mechanic, then a theme based upon that mechanic will have to be judged purely by the mechanic.

PLD's shield forms a core part of its identity. You can argue that "block isn't an identity, it's a mechanic". That's true, viewed in isolation. But there's more to it than that. You build gauge in Shield Oath by blocking. You have an ability that lets you counterattack after you block. You have moves that adjust your block rate. You have abilities which allow you to take damage in place of an ally, gaining more block procs in the process. Your signature move this expansion lets you stand in front of the group, shield outstretched, to defend your team. The shield is a part of your identity.

Right. So how can we situate Lifesteal to anchor a fulfilling DRK identity? It's not just a matter of groundwork; all groundwork does is mitigate any sense that the job has been arbitrarily or suddenly changed. What are the ends you're imagining that make Lifesteal feel so lucrative to you? If there's more you can give us to explain that, please do. "More ways to steal resources, and more interplay between them" sounds damn good, but where is that going and what will it look like in practice? Until now you've been trying to selling us on a solution to something as complex as, say, Calculus (DRK's massive identity issues) via only something as simple as "Add up the parts" (Lifesteal). While that may technically work, you could certainly give more explanation for how that actually provides all we need and why your method is particularly sound.

Is Lifesteal going to be something always available and used only "as needed", or is there something more to it that we can bank? What will be its actual cost? At present, Power Slash need scarcely exist, thus the only limiting factor for DA-SE is essentially rate of action, and DA-SE provides little of significance outside of extra damage and thus can only really be optimized around raid damage windows. Unless something changes in the actual gameplay, priorities, and possible optimizations I don't think Lifesteal will offer that much to identity. What more can we do with that mechanic to really augment gameplay?

[Izsha]

Very much this ^

Just giving Drk a dreadspikes CD 'cuz XI had it' makes it as much of a lifesteal tank as War is a parry tank because of raw intuition. I have previously heralded Pld's shield KIT as one of the best things SE has done for tanks in a while because it is a series of interlocking parts that really help sell the fantasy of a sword n board protective Pld just as the dual physical/holy rotation helps solidify the holy part of the paladin fantasy. Paladin is the best example of a class living up to its concept with a well designed kit. Just giving Drk dreadspikes doesnt do that.

The same way I wouldnt mind (for example) warrior going further into the HP synergy system they started to scratch at with Thrill/defiance/upheaval and move any support features into a warcry theme to really sell the barbarian feel they went with in this game (controlling and unleashing the inner beast etc.) Delete skills that dont add to the fantasy like raw intuition. Add things that help sell the concept of the class.

The western Holy Paladin archetype is pretty clear cut and the job's kit works toward that fantasy very well as of now.
The berserker barbarian straddling the line between control and rage is (ok-ishly) presented war's kit. But has some underdeveloped aspects like HP synergy and tacked on extras like SIO and Raw intuition for example that could be realigned to the concept.
Drk is a little lost in this area. When I think of Drk, I think of much of the old FF Drks but as discussed, those mechanics that sell that fantasy dont really work in 14 for various reasons. 'Lifesteal' doesnt fill that void.

Theres nothing inherently wrong with lifesteal and dread spikes was a cool skill in XI and fit the theme of the class in almost every angle. It fit the absorb/steal side stealing mob HP. It fit the hurt myself to hurt my enemy/lower defense to increase offense concept. It was dark magic on the class with the highest dark magic skills and spells. And it was a actually a good skill in the context of being useful in the game.

Giving it to Drk right now does none of that. Its just giving war raw intuition. Sure it is a functional skill that helps tanks be tanks, but its just tacked on. Doesnt help sell the character concept.

Me saying just handing out dreadspikes because 'lifesteal' isnt a good tank identity has nothing to do with keeping drk from getting toys. It has to do with it doesnt really do anything about drk identity. Drk is a perfectly capable and functional tank right now regarding balance etc. You can make any tank functional and good with a hodgepodge of skills that get the job done. But when were talking about a complete ground up redesign, you need more than just tacked on skills or you might as well leave drk as it is. You need a strong concept. An Identity. Lifesteal isnt a character. I would want to read a story about a paladin because thats an idea. A character. An Identity. The question is what would a book about a Dark Knight be? Far more than dreadspikes or lifesteal, though they could play a role if it somehow helped anchor the character the way a well developed shield system helps anchor Paladin.

[Phoenicia]

Giving it to Drk right now does none of that. Its just giving war raw intuition. Sure it is a functional skill that helps tanks be tanks, but its just tacked on. Doesnt help sell the character concept.

Living Dead is already a better example of "tacking on" stuff than Raw Intuition on WAR. :P (Just me butting in lol)

[Izsha]

Living Dead is already a better example of "tacking on" stuff than Raw Intuition on WAR. :P (Just me butting in lol)

{True Strike}

We can debate the power and balance of the skill all day, but it certainly does nothing to help figure out what Drk 'is'. Thats the fundamental problem with Drk. You can balance anything if you tweak the numbers enough. But numbers wont get a job to feel complete. Only a concept and a kit that supports it does that.

[Chrono_Rising]

Right. So how can we situate Lifesteal to anchor a fulfilling DRK identity? It's not just a matter of groundwork; all groundwork does is mitigate any sense that the job has been arbitrarily or suddenly changed. What are the ends you're imagining that make Lifesteal feel so lucrative to you? If there's more you can give us to explain that, please do. "More ways to steal resources, and more interplay between them" sounds damn good, but where is that going and what will it look like in practice?

You can balance anything if you tweak the numbers enough. But numbers wont get a job to feel complete. Only a concept and a kit that supports it does that.

Personally, I would like to see Dark Knight go the route of a fast hitting/debuff/stat stealing/lifesteal/resource generation tank.

These themes are broad enough to build a job on, and interconnected enough to make something which feels like a new kit. I would like to see these abilities used together to create something new. Clearly anything can be balanced by tweaking numbers.

But imagine being able to steal defense to raise your own mitigation, boost your lifesteal by dealing more damage, and boost your resource generation.

Imagine being able to steal strength or magic as dark knights form of self buffing as well as mitigating.

Imagine being able to unleash a flurry of attacks that steals enemies hp and using it to build a shield around yourself for passive mitigation.

Maybe ff14 dark knight should be adopting the motto "your strength is my strength".

Just food for thought.