Exploring Eorzea's Existing Lore

[Hasrat]

I doubt it would be much of a stretch to shift Duskwights to being general Underdark residents beyond just Gelmorra. But, everyone knows nobody wants to spend time trapped in caves. So, getting to actually see any such underground cities would be unlikely. Besides, being so isolated, they would have the luxury of not really being involved or impacted by the goings on of the surface, further reducing the need or likelihood of ever interacting.

[Iscah]

There aren't any major Duskwight settlements either, apart from the bandit camps we see in the Black Shroud. The Duskwights used to live in the underground city of Gelmorra, but after all the Wildwood Elezens and Midlander Hyur moved out of there, there weren't enough people left to maintain Gelmorra so it is just uninhabitable ruins today. Some few have moved into Gridania, while the rest try to make a living as bandits and brigands - which gives the Duskwights a bad reputation which in turn force them to live as bandits since few people will trust them enough to employ them.

I find it very hard to believe that the entire population of Duskwights are currently either "in Gridania, or living as bandits".

It can be hard to tell the clans apart, since there's an overlap in appearances, but there are no obviously Duskwight NPCs in the city except for that one poor guy getting berated by some Wood Wailers outside the lancers' guild. (Though a few have popped up in quests - eg. the girl from the recent Valentione's event, and a Serpent officer you interact with briefly during MSQ. Also, the main antagonist from the lancer questline.)

Of course, given the general Gridanian attitude towards them, it makes sense that any living in the city are more likely to be of an "able to pass for Wildwood" appearance.

Lore is vague on where the current population of Duskwights are, and how they're living - although the bandits seem to be a minority.

The lorebook says:

• Making their home in the deep forest caves and caverns for centuries, the Duskwight Elezen are the descendents of those who parted ways with their brethren after the founding of Gridania, choosing instead to remain in the stone-hewn chambers of Gelmorra or seek out new subterranean sanctums. Shunning the fetters of government and society, a great majority of the Duskwight keep a wide berth of the city-states, with some even resorting to brigandry as a means of survival. As a result, they are often looked upon with scorn by the citizens of Gridania, and those who have chosen to make their home in the city often suffer undue discrimination at the hands of their neighbours.
• They have long since eschewed contact with other races to pursue their own path in the shadowy seclusion of Eorzea's deep tunnels and caves.
• The customs of the subterranean city of Gelmorra are still practised by the Duskwights to this day, from architectural advances developed to stake out comfortable residences in dank, humid caves to mystical wards that serve to stave off the fury of the elementals.

The problem is, everything we've seen of Gelmorra is in ruins, and the Duskwight archaeologists at Issom-Har are talking like that culture has been long lost to them.

IRIELLE
...Hm? Oh, the ruins you can see down there are part of the ancient subterranean city known as Gelmorra.
For Duskwight Elezen such as ourselves, it represents a valuable and unexpected opportunity to learn more about the settlement where our ancestors once dwelled.

ROLANDAIX
Ah, you are an adventurer, are you not? Tell me, have you any experience in the field of relic hunting? I am currently attempting to catalog all of the artifacts in this area, you see, but am finding the task rather more time-consuming than I had initially anticipated...
I am all but convinced that we stand in what was once Gelmorra's residential district. Alas, I have yet to recover a sufficiency of domestic objects to confirm my theory. Should you happen upon any such items while wandering the area, I would be most grateful if you'd bring them to me.
Back so soon? Are you quite certain you exercised the appropriate amount of care and delicacy in your search? These artifacts are hundreds of years─oh, never mind. Show me what you found.
Yes...these are most certainly examples of Gelmorran tableware. Judging by the shape and ornamentation, they appear to be cups of the kind once used to serve herbal infusions...or possibly vegetable broth. Perfect!
My work here is far from done, but this discovery brings me one tantalizing step closer to realizing my dream: the restoration of these ruins, and their reestablishment as a settlement for the Duskwight Elezen.
Gridanians have long perceived my people as outcasts and brigands, yet if we Duskwights can return a measure of prosperity to this fallen city, we would no longer need to resort to common theft or banditry in order to make ends meet. Imagine it!

Buscarron also gives a brief explanation of them:

BUSCARRON
I'll not have my patrons picking fights with each other over a bit of petty prejudice.
In case you didn't see, the bloke who caught the brunt of that outburst is a Duskwight Elezen. They're a people who shun cities to live in the wilds, making them no better than brigands in the eyes of many.
To be fair, the Duskwights can be an unruly lot, but they ain't so bad once you get to know them. And it don't seem right to bar a whole race of people from the Druthers for the misdeeds of a few.

...and this is prettymuch the entirety of lore we have for them. It's quite frustrating and the facts don't really seem to line up.

One of my characters is a Duskwight, and I really don't know, literally, where he's supposed to be coming from. He isn't a bandit, and I'd like him to be a bit more linked to his culture than just "from Gridania", but there's no clear information about what that culture is. We have a few details but no big picture.

Ishgard is majority Wildwood

More exactly, Ishgard is majority Ishgardian Elezen, a separate clan by lore, but represented in the game using predominantly Wildwood character models.

Ishgard and Gelmorra were separate populations of Elezen, and then the Gelmorrans split into Wildwood and Duskwight clans.

Thavnair would likely be the closest thing to something of a Plainsfolk homeland since they're originally islanders and Thavnair is an island nation. Then again, the flip side to that though is that all we've seen from there are Hyurs.

That's a bit like saying Great Britain would be the closest thing to Hawaii because they're both islands...

But we do have more information about the Plainsfolk. Lalafells originated on the "south sea isles", apparently the Cieldales, and traveled to Eorzea from there. They founded the Fifth Astral Era city-states of Nym and Mhach, and the current clans are descended from those populations.

Plainsfolk are most common on Vylbrand, and still on their original islands as well.

I doubt it would be much of a stretch to shift Duskwights to being general Underdark residents beyond just Gelmorra. But, everyone knows nobody wants to spend time trapped in caves. So, getting to actually see any such underground cities would be unlikely. Besides, being so isolated, they would have the luxury of not really being involved or impacted by the goings on of the surface, further reducing the need or likelihood of ever interacting.

The lorebook information actually makes it sound like this could be the case.

It would be pretty great if we could get to visit a place like that - really nice caves instead of dark and dingy ones. They can be amazingly beautiful.

[Hasrat]

The lorebook information actually makes it sound like this could be the case.

It would be pretty great if we could get to visit a place like that - really nice caves instead of dark and dingy ones. They can be amazingly beautiful.

I mean, arguably, creating something of a Duskwight city shouldn't be a huge challenge. Just take something like Kugane and replace the skybox with cave background or something. Some might find it a stretch of disbelief to accept such a large cave as to house an entire city, but eh, it could still be presented well (c'mon, if we're not all already thinking it, just rip off some ideas from Menzoberranzan). Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

Every area presented thus far provides "settlements" and such in surroundings, with scattered aetherytes around for our convenience. But I do struggle a bit to imagine what they could do for that in the Underdark. Which leaves you with potentially something like Kugane, a grand city in a location (Hingashi) that you don't really get to explore.

In summation, while I'm sure there may be solutions to these problems, personal opinion is presently that a Duskwight city/civilization seems perfectly feasible, it's justifying the surroundings (or lack thereof) that provides a greater stumbling block.

[Jaywalker]

Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

I actually think there's a ton of potential with an underdark type setting, some even foreshadowed a bit! Substitute plants with insane fungus/mushroom/etc. forests (I remember reading that Duskwight cuisines uses mushrooms a lot IIRC?), use fauna that has insane lack of pigment and/or eyes similar to cave fish, geode aesthetics, bioluminescent lighting potentially for rule of fantasy, underground lakes and rivers, volcanic activity, could go on! And architecturally could do so much with intricate stonework and building cities into the surrounding caverns. Maybe since there's similar French influence could draw from Rococo vibes or something. Fun juxtaposition between the darkness and spookiness of caves and something very delicate and beautiful.

I'm sure there are folks who wouldn't be interested in this kind of take, but idk I'd love to see something that really experimented and pushed the concept.

Also Hell's Lid is technically subterranean area precedent, so logistically would be doable in Eorzea.

[Jaywalker]

More exactly, Ishgard is majority Ishgardian Elezen, a separate clan by lore, but represented in the game using predominantly Wildwood character models.

Ishgard and Gelmorra were separate populations of Elezen, and then the Gelmorrans split into Wildwood and Duskwight clans.

Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

IIRC that pirate dude who takes WoL to Doma was Ishgardian Duskwight and (while I might be incorrect) I thought there were wiki listings categorizing a bunch of Ishgardians as Wildwood Elezen? I read it as there are different subcultures between various groups of Wildwood Elezen similar to how ex. a Doman Midlander and an Ul'dahn Midlander might be the same subrace but have dramatically different cultures and ethnic features. Also how Yanxian Hellsguard seem to have different cultures from Eorzean Hellsguard while still both being Hellsguard.

Don't mean any of this as some kind of "gotcha", honestly confused here lol. If you don't mind, would you mind clarifying the way this breaks down for you a bit? Like are you categorizing Ishgardian Elezen as a third subrace similar to how Gosetsu is a third subrace of Roegadyn separate from Hellsguard or Seawolves?

[MistakeNot]

Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

The Wildwood/Duskwight division is a strictly Gridanian/Black Shroud thing.
Due to the Elementals not liking people messing with their forest, it used to be the case that nearly everyone who lived in the Black Shroud resided in the underground city of Gelmorra. Eventually they learned to communicate with the Elementals and most moved above ground and founded Gridania. Some of the Elezen wanted to stay in Gelmorra though - they became the Duskwights, while those who created Gridania became the Wildwood.
Before they moved out of Gelmorra the Duskwight/Wildwood split simply did not exist.

By the time Gridania was created and Gelmorra mostly abandoned, the city of Ishgard had already existed for a good while, with plenty of Elezen living there who hadn't gone through the same split that happend in Gridania.

It is similar with the Roegadyn in the Far East. They are a different group from the Seawolves (who originated up in the north before moving to Limsa Lominsa) and from the Hellsguard (who are native to mountain villages around Gyr Abania)

[Iscah]

We haven't actually seen a full world map to know how big Meracydia and the New World are. They could be nearly as big as Aldenard for all we know and there definitely are other substantially sized continents judging from what we saw of Hydaelyn from outer space in that 3.4 cutscene on the moon.

It's likely they're.... well, continent-sized!

Given the writers' general reliance on real-world geography, and what we know of cultures and plants noted to originate from those places, we can judge that the New World is clearly at least North America, possibly both the Americas, and Meracydia may be a detached Africa. (Or possibly the half of it that isn't melded into southern Aldenard.)

There's also likely to be an Australia-equivalent out there somewhere. Does anyone here have the Koala Joey and/or Frilled Dragon minions? Do the descriptions say anything about where they're from?

I mean, arguably, creating something of a Duskwight city shouldn't be a huge challenge. Just take something like Kugane and replace the skybox with cave background or something. Some might find it a stretch of disbelief to accept such a large cave as to house an entire city, but eh, it could still be presented well (c'mon, if we're not all already thinking it, just rip off some ideas from Menzoberranzan). Seems to me the greater challenge would be creating surrounding areas of similar interest. Given everything we know and interactions to date, seems reasonable to expect any such city to be largely self sustaining, so I can't imagine much in the way of wide avenues and tunnels branching out (except maybe to some degree for inter-city transport?).

Every area presented thus far provides "settlements" and such in surroundings, with scattered aetherytes around for our convenience. But I do struggle a bit to imagine what they could do for that in the Underdark. Which leaves you with potentially something like Kugane, a grand city in a location (Hingashi) that you don't really get to explore.

I think it could be quite doable, especially if you just had the city itself being underground, and surrounding areas outside. Could do some interesting landscapes with potholes and arches. Though I'd like to see a full cave environment too.

For the city itself, larger caverns (possibly with natural light coming in, or lit by crystals) would operate as communal areas, while smaller tunnels and dead-ends would function as "buildings" - walled off at their entrance and used as individual houses or businesses.

For a larger zone set underground, it would definitely need some wider areas where people can move freely. Perhaps some paths that are rather winding on foot, but once you can access flight it "cuts the knot" and you can travel a lot more easily.

Dzemael Darkhold is actually a decent example of what it could be like - if you took away the "dungeon crawling with monsters" thing, lit it more nicely, made it a bit more connected... there are large open spaces and an underground river that flows through it. If you go down a side passage near the start you can look out across a gap to a waterfall, and that's actually coming from the area where you fight the Ahriman boss.

I actually think there's a ton of potential with an underdark type setting, some even foreshadowed a bit! Substitute plants with insane fungus/mushroom/etc. forests (I remember reading that Duskwight cuisines uses mushrooms a lot IIRC?), use fauna that has insane lack of pigment and/or eyes similar to cave fish, geode aesthetics, bioluminescent lighting potentially for rule of fantasy, underground lakes and rivers, volcanic activity, could go on! And architecturally could do so much with intricate stonework and building cities into the surrounding caverns. Maybe since there's similar French influence could draw from Rococo vibes or something. Fun juxtaposition between the darkness and spookiness of caves and something very delicate and beautiful.

Definitely would like to see something like this!

On your side note about Duskwight cuisine, the lorebook says they use a lot of Mun-Tuy beans, which apparently don't need sunlight. (Not sure if they're meant to be based on anything; the "soy sauce" item text says it's similar to Mun-Tuy sauce but that's the closest we get. Probably completely fictional.) No mention of mushrooms, but they'd definitely be a logical choice as well.

Thought your whole reply was interesting to read, this is one bit I'm wondering about though. I thought Wildwood/Duskwight were racial subtypes in the same way that Midlanders/Highlanders are, with Ishgard/Gridania being separated by nation with some racial majorities but not being exclusive? Similar to how Ala Mhigo has a majority Highlander population but there are Ala Mhigan Midlanders too and all.

IIRC that pirate dude who takes WoL to Doma was Ishgardian Duskwight and (while I might be incorrect) I thought there were wiki listings categorizing a bunch of Ishgardians as Wildwood Elezen? I read it as there are different subcultures between various groups of Wildwood Elezen similar to how ex. a Doman Midlander and an Ul'dahn Midlander might be the same subrace but have dramatically different cultures and ethnic features. Also how Yanxian Hellsguard seem to have different cultures from Eorzean Hellsguard while still both being Hellsguard.

Don't mean any of this as some kind of "gotcha", honestly confused here lol. If you don't mind, would you mind clarifying the way this breaks down for you a bit? Like are you categorizing Ishgardian Elezen as a third subrace similar to how Gosetsu is a third subrace of Roegadyn separate from Hellsguard or Seawolves?

Yes, Ishgardians are a third sub-race of Elezen. They just don't have unique models.

Basically there are two elements to races in this game: there are the programmed character models, defined as specific races, that both player-characters and the majority of NPCs are built from - but also a lore aspect which may or may not line up with that programmed race.

At a programming level, there are only Wildwood and Duskwight Elezen. Ishgardian Elezen are a separate clan according to lore, but there's no need to create a new programmed race for them - they use Wildwood (and occasionally Duskwight) character models, but they do not fall within the actual cultural group that is Wildwood Elezen, ie. descendants of Gelmorra, a separate nation that existed alongside Ishgard.

I wouldn't put any weight on information from the wiki - it's fan-written and dependent on individual interpretation. That said, the lorebook itself is a bit wobbly on sometimes calling Ishgardian characters "Wildwood", specifically in the character 'stats' given for job quest NPCs. But in other places it's clear the terms are used separately - the best example being the racial demographics for each city. Gridania's population is (among others) 30% Wildwood Elezen and 10% Duskwight Elezen, while Ishgard is 70% Ishgardian Elezen. Also, full-prose character profiles usually mention their clan, and Ishgardians are either noted as such or just not mentioned - never labeled as Wildwood or Duskwight, as far as I can see.

There are a few Ishgardian characters that I know have Duskwight models from looking at the character data - Ysayle, Grinnaux de Dzemael (but not his grandfather, who we meet in another quest), Edmont (but not his sons), Jandelaine and his twin brother from one of the Postmoogle quests. I'm guessing it's more based on what works for individual character design, rather than any lore-intent behind it. Ysayle has that rather icy skintone, and the others use Duskwight-specific scars or markings.
Edmont is an odd one though, as he has a customised face and isn't designed with any Duskwight-specific features or colouring - although I did realise his face isn't actually unique but is modified from one of the Au Ra faces, of all things... it's pretty unmistakeable once you can see it. His moustache is part of the Au Ra face build, so maybe the colour of it is still affected by the "Clan A/Clan B" switch and needs to be set to 'Xaela' so it's black. Or maybe I'm just way off the mark and there's no real reason for it.

Re. "that pirate dude", Carvallain, he's an interesting one - but first I have to back up a few steps with a kinda-sorta-spoiler (a missable rather than 'future' plot point, which you might not have picked up on). If you join up the right dots, you can work out he's actually the long-lost son of the Count de Durendaire, who was allegedly lost at sea twenty years ago when pirates attacked the ship. (Once you are aware of that, it makes a lot of interactions with him more amusing. Tataru basically blackmailed him into taking us to Kugane by threatening to let the count know what really happened to him!)

So. House Durendaire. That distinct colouration seems to be a family trait - there's the astrologian guildmaster Jannequinard, and we see the count briefly at the end of Dragonsong. Plus their distant ancestor, who we see in the cutscene of Haldrath's knights after the Aery.

I nearly brought them up as an example in my last post, because despite their rather Duskwight-ish appearance, they're all Wildwood character models - and it's evidently an appearance trait that pre-dates both Ishgard and Gelmorra (but isn't very common in the Ishgardian population). So suppose that kind of trait gets stronger in one part of the population, particularly in that group living in the caves - perhaps it gives them some kind of advantage there.

[Jaywalker]

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!!! Eeeeey another drow fan! I haven't gotten to read novels for 'em (if you have any recs please let me know!) but I have done DnD research into lore using youtube vids, wikis, and so on. Find them very interesting!

On cave settings, do you think it would help somewhat to have the area surrounding the city not 100% underground/with varying depths? City itself is totally subterranean but in terms of landscape for enemy encounters you can have spots closer to the surface where rain and sunlight filter through between patches of stone occasionally, with a wider scope. Other areas going deeper could then be more claustrophobic (think similar to Tam Tara Deepcroft or Dzemael Darkhold, parts are wider but other parts get very restrictive). XD I know people love the flying mounts and all, but tbh SE could just say that as you go deeper and hit areas farther from the surface with its air currents you lose that. If there are extensive under water areas you could still use that "underwater flying" swim deal going from place to place for player convenience. It is technically one less feature for devs to need to implement/a bit less work if they wanted to do it.

Dividing into smaller chunks seems like it could potentially work too depending. Could do either a grand civilization approach or could show a collection of settlements similar to the Xaela in a way.

I'm sure someone else will come along with a bigger better explanation, but as I understood it, basically Ishgard was founded (and isolated itself?) so long ago that the whole subrace thing simply doesn't entirely apply to them.

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Thank you guys so much for explaining this omg. I am a bit ??? on Hellsguard in Doma (character model-wise), and at this point am wondering if they’re technically supposed to be a separate subrace from both Gosetsu and Eorzean Hellsguard but without model differentiation to make four known subraces there or if it’s supposed to be the same as Gosetsu but SE didn’t make the models? XD Here I was figuring player options in character creator were largely what was just available in-world with a few exceptions, this is a funny reveal for me.

On your side note about Duskwight cuisine, the lorebook says they use a lot of Mun-Tuy beans, which apparently don't need sunlight.

[…]

Edmont is an odd one though, as he has a customised face and isn't designed with any Duskwight-specific features or colouring - although I did realise his face isn't actually unique but is modified from one of the Au Ra faces, of all things... it's pretty unmistakeable once you can see it. His moustache is part of the Au Ra face build, so maybe the colour of it is still affected by the "Clan A/Clan B" switch and needs to be set to 'Xaela' so it's black. Or maybe I'm just way off the mark and there's no real reason for it.

[…]

Re. "that pirate dude", Carvallain, he's an interesting one - but first I have to back up a few steps with a kinda-sorta-spoiler (a missable rather than 'future' plot point, which you might not have picked up on). If you join up the right dots, you can work out he's actually the long-lost son of the Count de Durendaire, who was allegedly lost at sea twenty years ago when pirates attacked the ship. (Once you are aware of that, it makes a lot of interactions with him more amusing. Tataru basically blackmailed him into taking us to Kugane by threatening to let the count know what really happened to him!)

[…]

So. House Durendaire. That distinct colouration seems to be a family trait - there's the astrologian guildmaster Jannequinard, and we see the count briefly at the end of Dragonsong. Plus their distant ancestor, who we see in the cutscene of Haldrath's knights after the Aery.

I nearly brought them up as an example in my last post, because despite their rather Duskwight-ish appearance, they're all Wildwood character models - and it's evidently an appearance trait that pre-dates both Ishgard and Gelmorra (but isn't very common in the Ishgardian population). So suppose that kind of trait gets stronger in one part of the population, particularly in that group living in the caves - perhaps it gives them some kind of advantage there.

Whoop, thank you for clarifying on the beans! Misremembered there haha. Also omg yeah now that I think of it you’re right on about Edmont using Xaela design. I thought his face looked familiar but couldn’t place it. I think it was just for aesthetics and all (suspect you were looking from that angle too) but pfff imagine if it turned out Haurchefant’s whole family had a little Au Ra heritage mixed in.

Lol I did hear about Carvallain before that scene! Still funny though and appreciate the recap.

That is really interesting on House Durendaire though. It makes me wonder a bit about Elezen history/evolution some and if there’s still lore/civilizatons that the devs haven’t revealed yet.

[Enkidoh]

It's likely they're.... well, continent-sized!

Given the writers' general reliance on real-world geography, and what we know of cultures and plants noted to originate from those places, we can judge that the New World is clearly at least North America, possibly both the Americas, and Meracydia may be a detached Africa. (Or possibly the half of it that isn't melded into southern Aldenard.)

Hydaelyn's Africa is actually Eorzea itself, or at least, very loosely anyway (Aldernard's shape is a close match for Africa, right down to Vylbrand being a mirror-flipped Madadasgar), and that it was, in 1.0 anyway, mostly a 'wild frontier' between a few pockets of civilization (this is why Eorzea to this day is still regarded as 'savage' by the European-stand-in Garleans, besides obviously parroting how ancient Rome regarded other nations other than themselves as barbarians) - albeit one where Europe has detached itself completely from Africa other than Greece and relocated to the other side of the planet and the Middle East is now an isolated island in the middle of the ocean).

There's also likely to be an Australia-equivalent out there somewhere. Does anyone here have the Koala Joey and/or Frilled Dragon minions? Do the descriptions say anything about where they're from?

For all intents and purposes from what we do know of Meracydia it appears to actually be Hydaelyn's Terra Australis Incognita - mysterious island continent in the far south of the planet that is a inhospitable wasteland populated by dangerous wildlife, although Ala Mhigo/Gyr Abania of all places also shares some elements with modern Australia - equally hostile environment with it's inhabitants earning a reputation for being tough-as-nails and gave rise to more than a few talented soldiers - even it's national anthem 'The Measure of His Reach' shares musical (but not lyrical) similarities with Australia's national anthem. (No surprises then that as an Australian myself I had Enki be Ala Mhigan by birth ).

I can confirm the koala joey minion at least says nothing about Meracydia (or even where on Hydaelyn it comes from for that matter) - it's description in the minion guide is just an extended joke about drop bears.