New ToS gives hope for official DPS meters?

[Gemina]

Can't edit on mobile but I meant DPS received X damage from Y attack and died as a result. It's incredibly verbose.

And the question wasn't if it shows "this DPS took x amount of damage from y", the question is does it show he/she had a prey marker and couldn't do jack to avoid the damage, making it the healer's fault why their DPS went down? If you can't read a post accurately, how can you be confided in reading fflogs accurately?

[AxlStream]

Don't you know ability names...? it'll show the ability name and you'll go "ah it's the prey marker". I seriously don't know what else you can ask of it.

[Satarn]

And the question wasn't if it shows "this DPS took x amount of damage from y", the question is does it show he/she had a prey marker and couldn't do jack to avoid the damage, making it the healer's fault why their DPS went down? If you can't read a post accurately, how can you be confided in reading fflogs accurately?

Quick upload of the parse will show you that: the dps was targeted by prey, how much damage they took, what hits(if any) they took shortly before the death itself(as well as literally any damage they took through entire run), what buffs and debuffs were they under in case you're supposed to mitigate the prey or perhaps the dps ate a vuln stack earlier, the exact position of said dps as well as any healing they received, both values and skill names.

People like to look at parsing and fflogs as a dps-only thing, but it actually shows you literally anything you could possibly need to know for troubleshooting not just dps checks, but also healing, mitigation and yes, even mechanics. They absolutely tell the whole story.

Not to mention you accuse Axl of using it for "exploitative purposes" when he literally said:

I like knowing the exact performance of my group to see who is the weak point and define how to address.

Which implies trying to help the under-performing person improve, instead of leaving them in ignorance that can hurt their progress with other groups in the future.

[Penthea]

But they don't want to see if YOU are worthy. They want to see if THEY, THEMSELVES are worthy. Nobody cares about you in the content you said you do.

If we get in-game parsers for only ex, savage and ultimate players will ask for it in other levels of content if SE don't implement them in all group content. Players will not stop asking for them until they're everywhere.

If the game gets parsers everywhere many players will care about the parse results even if it's Copper Bell Mines normal. You might only care in content that is comparable to savage but in my time in WoW I met a great deal of people who cared in even the most easy low level drivel.

A few days ago I went into Labyrinth of the Ancients. As you likely know, it's a pretty easy lvl 50 alliance raid. I rarely see it go anything other than smooth and quick. When we all zoned in someone said in alliance chat "do this fast" and quite a few people's reaction was like "is this ever slow? what's your problem?". That person is highly likely to be the sort of player who will care about parse results in low level content because they're overly concerned about being slowed down even a little.

Quick upload of the parse will show you that

The problem with this is doing it requires things called time, effort and knowledge. Most players just glance at the numbers to make a judgement either because they don't realise mere dps/hps numbers are often not enough to give an accurate picture, or they're too lazy to upload and start digging. On top of that in order to dig in parse results to find an answer you often need to know about far more than just your main class. Only players who are very knowledgeable about the game can be counted on to use parsers correctly and upload them if they need more in-depth information. You only need to look at the threads venting about bad DF experiences to get an idea as to how many people who play this game that wouldn't be qualified as knowledgeable. It's not an insignificant number.

On top of that parsers still don't tell you everything. They don't tell you where someone was standing. You can sometimes guess if lets say a person with an aoe marker killed another player. But all that tells you is someone stood in the wrong place. It doesn't tell you exactly who or where. Sometimes my static has had to resort to looking over a visual recording to find out what happened if the issue we had was potentially due to positioning.

Edit: turns out uploading logs can tell you about positioning

[Satarn]

The problem with this is doing it requires things called time, effort and knowledge. Most players just glance at the numbers to make a judgement either because they don't realise mere dps/hps numbers are often not enough to give an accurate picture, or they're too lazy to upload and start digging. On top of that in order to dig in parse results to find an answer you often need to know about far more than just your main class. Only players who are very knowledgeable about the game can be counted on to use parsers correctly and upload them if they need more in-depth information. You only need to look at the threads venting about bad DF experiences to get an idea as to how many people who play this game that wouldn't be qualified as knowledgeable. It's not an insignificant number.

On top of that parsers still don't tell you everything. They don't tell you where someone was standing. You can sometimes guess if lets say a person with an aoe marker killed another player. But all that tells you is someone stood in the wrong place. It doesn't tell you exactly who or where. Sometimes my static has had to resort to looking over a visual recording to find out what happened if the issue we had was potentially due to positioning.

Edit: turns out uploading logs can tell you about positioning

Lack of knowledge and laziness makes people act shitty without parsers. There's situations when people will give you crap because they think you're doing something wrong based on their lack of knowledge, while checking ACT would immiedietly prove them wrong - but you can't talk about it so have fun with them talking shit.

That is irrelevant however, as I wasn't advocating for in-game parser in my post. Yoshi P shares your opinion on this and that will not change, so trying to argue for it is utterly pointless. There's also no way they'd spend resources to make something that actually gives all information ACT with Logs provide, so again, why bother.

I am simply annoyed with people who have no idea how the resource works and still talk crap about anybody who uses it, as well as general misinformation that it's "just an elitist dps leader-boards that provides no context". I mean you've even claimed the logs don't show positioning, in a reply to the very post in which I've already said they do. You've corrected yourself once called out, but still.

[Penthea]

Lack of knowledge and laziness makes people act shitty without parsers. There's situations when people will give you crap because they think you're doing something wrong based on their lack of knowledge, while checking ACT would immiedietly prove them wrong - but you can't talk about it so have fun with them talking shit.

There is something to be said about giving people less tools to be horrible to one another. WoW's community was quite a lot like FFXIV's before parsers were commonly used; most people only cared if things died and if they got loot. The atmosphere in WoW changed for the worse after everyone and their mother got a parser. I fail to see how it would be any different in FFXIV.

I am simply annoyed with people who have no idea how the resource works and still talk crap about anybody who uses it as well as general misinformation that it's "just an elitist dps leader-boards that provides no context". I mean you've even claimed the logs don't show positioning, in a reply to the very post in which I've already said they do. You've corrected yourself once called out, but still.

The reason why I am not super familiar with FFlogs is frankly I don't feel qualified to look through it in the depth that my team sometimes requires. I know a lot about healer classes and that's kind of it. There are players in my static who have played significantly more classes at a higher level than I have and they're far better at theorycrafting as well, so I trust them to look for the information. Furthermore, I don't know what it is about ACT, but if anyone in my house uses it everyone gets horrendous lag so I have no access to a parser, which means I can't upload logs.

I will be asking why they don't look at FFlogs for positioning, though in our defence we have had confusion about positioning only around three times in more than a year. So the option to -see- where everyone is standing from a log is something we rarely needed. I can't even remember the last time we needed that information. I can only recall that we did at some points.

But I don't think me being unaware that you could look at positioning in FFLogs automatically makes every argument I have made against introducing parsers irrelevant. It is true most people don't have the knowledge to use them properly, it is true many are too lazy to upload logs to get a clearer picture, and it is true that while it can be a useful and helpful tool it can also be used for the exact opposite with ease.

[Dualgunner]

A parsing thread? What is this, January 2018?

The debate's kind of been run dry several times over. To this day I haven't seen more than anecdotal evidence supporting the claim that parsers make a community more toxic. So far the only good point I've seen posted has been "There's something to be said about not giving people more tools to be toxic to each other," but that gets turned around to the point I can easily say the chatbox should be removed from the game with the exact same logic. I would even wager that chatboxes are a much stronger tool for toxicity than parsers ever have been or will be.

Saw a claim that FFLogs is just contextless e-peen flexing also. Some people do use it as that. My group uses it to gauge a lot of things; where healing and mitigation would be optimal based on outgoing boss damage and the best times to line up dps burst windows to name a few key team coordinations that FFLogs worked great as a tool to allow us to do.

[Penthea]

The debate's kind of been run dry several times over. To this day I haven't seen more than anecdotal evidence supporting the claim that parsers make a community more toxic.

By the same vein a person could say they haven't seen more than anecdotal evidence that the presence of parsers wouldn't fuel toxicity.

This is one of the reasons why this debate is endless. Everyone's argument is anecdotal. And those that aren't are dismissed as an irregularity by those who oppose the argument. We're doomed to go in circles.

[Satarn]

The reason why I am not super familiar with FFlogs is frankly I don't feel qualified to look through it in the depth that my team sometimes requires.
(...) But I don't think me being unaware that you could look at positioning in FFLogs automatically makes every argument I have made against introducing parsers irrelevant.

I never said it makes all your arguments irrelevant. I merely used the example to illustrate how, just as you couldn't even be bothered to fully read my post before responding, many people can't be bothered to learn what data parsing really provides, before they completely condemn it and people involved.

You also admit to not being very familiar with features of fflogs and yet you thought it fitting to make a statement, about what information it does and does not provide, which you worded as if it was a fact.

Honestly I don't even have a beef with you or your opinion. Just with misinformation which is so often spread in such threads.