Regarding the Revision of the Prohibited Activities and Account Penalty Policy

[Kurando]

I give up, this island is lost, have fun in USSR 2.0 xD

If you don't understand that's fine, just say so but please don't act ignorant. It's also a poor analogy to use, people who actually lived in an USSR occupied country will tell you the situations are very different. That's something someone could very well be offended by, especially with the updated rules, but I'm sure you know better.

[Tiraelina]

You’re interpreting this far different from myself. “Cat and mouse game”, in my interpretation, is literally a stalemate where neither side ends up winning. Both parties arrive at an impasse, and that’s a problem.

Take the following scenario: You have a random matched party in an Expert dungeon. The tank decides to do large pulls, and the healer dissents, saying that large pulls are “stressful to them” and that the tank is “being inconsiderate by trying to force the large pulls on them”. This would fall under “emotional distress” caused by “compelling a playstyle”. Conversely, the tank becomes frustrated because the healer now wants to dictate that they do small pulls over large ones, thereby “compelling a playstyle” on the tank. So, who wins here? Under these current guidelines, both can be spun into “emotionally distressing” situations of “compelling a playstyle”, but who gets punished? The one who does a better job of wording their argument? The one who reports first? How do we know? How can we determine it? It’s a stalemate.


There is very little clarity with these statements, and that is what the NA forums (not “American forums”) want. As well as players that are from other regions (e.g., EU) that post here (the guidelines were not posted in either the French or German subforums, from what I saw).

Even with only a handful of posts on the JP side, them asking for examples comes off as synonymous with asking for clarification, in my opinion. I never said they were outright dissenting the implementation (I’m already well aware that Japanese tend to not outright disagree with things even if they do disagree with them), but that they were asking for clarifications. The poster I responded to said that they “don’t give a crap”, but I don’t think they’d be asking for clarifications/examples if they “didn’t give a crap”.



“Be awesome to one another” means different things to different people.

These guidelines give full autonomy, but that can lead to inconsistencies in moderation because now the GMs don’t have exact guidelines to follow. It seems like it will fall more upon the whims of whatever the particular GM that gets your ticket has. As I said before, some of the guidelines posted are downright unenforceable in a game that has so many different cultures, each with differing values and “morals”.

It's also yet another example of trying to insert logic into this that doesn't exist. By your own example the healer states they don't want to because its stressful or because they can't do it very well, the why doesn't really matter. It's going to be right on the tank if they want to make it difficult by forcing wipes because he refuses to adapt in a roulette. What's the tank going to do if the healer is too poorly geared for/simply can't handle large pulls or the DPS can't do enough damage? Throw a tantrum and force everyone to wait out the kick timer? If you 100% want your way, go make a manual group and stay the hell out of roulette if you can't adapt to whatever hand you are dealt.

There's more than enough clarity if everyone would take a step back instead of plotting passive aggressive scenarios as a "Told you so!". You are the only one that can dig your grave when it comes to these if you get reported for something.

[Driskus]

Someone earlier mentioned with the new rules how someone could be banned for saying "Hi" and here is an example how.
One player "Hi"
Other player "I was deeply offended at another player's use of the word " Hi". The way they spoke to me was far too informal, considering the fact we had not even met before. Their familiarity was deeply unsettling for me. Not only that, but everybody knows that "Hi" is an acronym for "Huge Idiot" so [the player] was being incredibly rude and belittling. "

You can get penalised for offending another player, even if it wasn't your intention, under these new rules, so trolls could exploit it by reporting in the manner seen above.

This has literally happened to me twice in DF parties since Stormblood released. Even using "hello" was met with a very harsh response both times. I reported and blacklisted both of them. With these new rules, now we're at fault instead of them.

[HyoMinPark]

It's also yet another example of trying to insert logic into this that doesn't exist.

Your example isn’t much different, to be honest.

By your own example the healer states they don't want to because its stressful or because they can't do it very well, the why doesn't really matter. It's going to be right on the tank if they want to make it difficult by forcing wipes because he refuses to adapt in a roulette.

Why can’t the healer adapt in a roulette? Why does it have to be the tank?

What's the tank going to do if the healer is too poorly geared for/simply can't handle large pulls or the DPS can't do enough damage?

What if the healer is in full i390/400 gear and the DPS are doing “enough damage”?

Throw a tantrum and force everyone to wait out the kick timer?

When did I say the tank was going to throw a tantrum? What if the healer did this?

If you 100% want your way, go make a manual group and stay the hell out of roulette if you can't adapt to whatever hand you are dealt.

The same can be said to the healer?


You’re literally proving my point. These guidelines can be spun to fit anything. So who wins? Who is “right”?

There's more than enough clarity if everyone would take a step back instead of plotting passive aggressive scenarios as a "Told you so!". You are the only one that can dig your grave when it comes to these if you get reported for something.

I’m not trying to do a “Told you so!”, but thank you for assuming. Comparing this Code of Conduct to other MMOs’ codes of conducts, the latter examples give explicit examples of things that are strictly prohibited, and none of them have strange guidelines like “unilaterally rejecting another’s opinion” or “compelling a playstyle” or “contravene (undefined) morals”. That’s all people are asking for, because these “guidelines” carry the connotation of “anything that offends someone”, which is incredibly vague.

But, that’s just too much to ask for, I guess.

I think, in this case, the tank would probably have to concede. Pulling more than the party could handle could end in failure leading to a wipe while pulling less than a party can handle just lengthens the time it takes to complete a duty. Thus, while both sides could cite emotional distress, the healer could also cite obstructive behavior.

Why would the tank have to concede? How is larger pulls “obstructive behavior”? Tiraelina said that you have to deal with the hand you’re dealt with in roulettes... except apparently in the case of this healer? Where they are allowed to now dictate the pace of the tank/party? The tank is suddenly the one who has to deal, but why is this not being applied to the healer? What makes them exempt from “dealing with the hand you’re dealt with”?

[linay]

Take the following scenario: You have a random matched party in an Expert dungeon. The tank decides to do large pulls, and the healer dissents, saying that large pulls are “stressful to them” and that the tank is “being inconsiderate by trying to force the large pulls on them”. This would fall under “emotional distress” caused by “compelling a playstyle”. Conversely, the tank becomes frustrated because the healer now wants to dictate that they do small pulls over large ones, thereby “compelling a playstyle” on the tank. So, who wins here? Under these current guidelines, both can be spun into “emotionally distressing” situations of “compelling a playstyle”, but who gets punished? The one who does a better job of wording their argument? The one who reports first? How do we know? How can we determine it? It’s a stalemate.

I think, in this case, the tank would probably have to concede. Pulling more than the party could handle could end in failure leading to a wipe while pulling less than a party can handle just lengthens the time it takes to complete a duty. Thus, while both sides could cite emotional distress, the healer could also cite obstructive behavior.

[kikix12]

I think, in this case, the tank would probably have to concede. Pulling more than the party could handle could end in failure leading to a wipe while pulling less than a party can handle just lengthens the time it takes to complete a duty. Thus, while both sides could cite emotional distress, the healer could also cite obstructive behavior.

Multi-pulls are possible. More people are capable of doing that than you would think in most dungeons. Though there are some particular groups of mobs that are absolutely not recommended to mix without really good gear, most can be safely grouped up.

In that situation, one could say that the healer is "obstructing the gameplay" of the others if they fail to fully utilize their kit to heal thus "causing wipes". By being bad they make it impossible to play efficiently. For many AoE's in this game it is pretty much necessary to pack two groups because at three mobs their potency just isn't high enough to make them better than single target attacks. And that's without taking into account the cooldowns sharp decrease in efficiency.

In the end, whenever we are talking about anything remotely "playstyle"...we are talking about either everyone being in the wrong or no one. There's ALWAYS going to be someone that needs to cave in...or the party will just need to quit. And there's really no way to decide this fairly as an outsider. The party members can vote to do it one way or another, but at four party members it's possible to get a tie. And someone's still going to "get distressed".

[Shibi]

You’re interpreting this far different from myself. “Cat and mouse game”, in my interpretation, is literally a stalemate where neither side ends up winning.

If it is that post i copy pasted that you were referring to, you interpreted as weasel words/sly, and it's not. Please refer to: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/いたちごっこ to see the idiomatic meaning.

Impasse suggests there is an ultimate ending to it where neither side wins, maybe a better translation is "Arms race" as in, a situation where it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger ad infinitum?

The poster was saying (paraphrasing even more then I did before): Make the rules 100% invariable and people will sneak their way around them, so more 100% invariable rules need to be added, and people will sneak their way around them, so more 100% invariable rules need to added.

Take the following scenario: You have a random matched party in an Expert dungeon. The tank decides to do large pulls, and the healer dissents, saying that large pulls are “stressful to them” and that the tank is “being inconsiderate by trying to force the large pulls on them”. This would fall under “emotional distress” caused by “compelling a playstyle”.

Legislating Playstyle is weird. I said that in my post. Please re-read and check. I strongly think SE need to clarify just this one a bit, all the rest are quite clearly "being excellent to each other" but this legislation of playstyle isn't and is very weird. (Note that it's the same wording and meaning in the JP version, weird)

We are in agreement on this point, yes?

There is very little clarity with these statements, and that is what the NA forums (not “American forums”) want

Forgive my imprecise use of "American", it was not means as a slight, just to describe this side of the forums when I didn't know better. I will refer to this side as the NA forums not the American ones. Sorry.

[Thoosa]

What I will find interesting is behaviours in future in Alliance Raid and Savage.

Whether people will tone down the colourful conversations I’ve witnessed before or calling out people messing up in fear of any punishments.

Also I want to give an example of Savage specific scenarios.

For example what would happen in a run where people are making mistakes for whatever reason and someone points it out, will that still happen and will people live in fear of potential consequences? Say in these situations:

if the boss is enraging due to low dps, people not knowing the fight, failing mechanics consistently, or just not playing their job properly, do people think that this will lead to an influx of complaints from people receiving criticisms for the way they are playing? Will people still point out bad play?

Also one more example:

The run is failing and the part leader decides that the group won’t clear so they leave the group and kick those who they feel aren’t performing - do you think this will still happen or will people just simply disband groups to avoid any potential complaint?

[Anselmet]

Let's be real, these rules are gonna be abused by two types of people. 1. the type we all wanna punish, the actual toxic players, and 2. the overly sensitive players that can find just about anything to be problematic.

The ones who will suffer from these rules? The average player.

[Nakaress]

You're being racist....to say that just because i am a american that i am a boorish person? That is generalizing an entire group of people and then insulting them based them being a part of that group. It's an extremely childish thing to say and is only counterproductive in the sense that you claim that more respect is what we need while at the same time hypocritically stating such things as this. I am reporting you for harassing me based on racist generalized statements. No seriously i'm reporting you.

As a fellow American, there is nothing (nationality does not equate race I'm afraid) racist in their comment at all. Please educate yourself on the meaning of such words and contextual use before you sling around such ignorance.

You got generalizing correct though, but you really need to stop with the hyperbole that's so rampant in this damn country anymore.

Also these new rules are too vague and seem easily abuse-able in favor of people that nitpick and complain too much.

I'll basically be treating the game as a single player game even more so than I already have been doing.