we got a fourth tank

[Neela]

Umm - we've had this for quite a while. SMN has Titan-Egi which is tank minion. It's most excellent when i'm soloing content. Also works ok if we're undersized in a party.

i also would like see a beastmaster with tanking pets - I would really enjoy it, but I guess Nosa we are some of the less who like pets at all ^^

[Bright-Flower]

Umm - we've had this for quite a while. SMN has Titan-Egi which is tank minion. It's most excellent when i'm soloing content. Also works ok if we're undersized in a party.

Yeah, it works fine for soloing as a smn or when there's not a proper tank around, but I would not want to deal with them in current dungeons and raids.

Even if they say set up the defensive cooldowns and taunts to work seamlessly and do something like a health sharing mechanic, having a pet positioning bosses would be a pain.

[HyperiusUltima]

GUN probably will have burst similar to PLD’s Requiescat window perhaps, but I think that we’ll at least have a gauge of what to expect of them whenever they release or bring out a play test version to the public.

What I expect is for it to be decent on MP and a tad more aggressive than PLD, but not as aggressive as DRK/WAR in terms of playstyle.

[Renato]

My thing is I hope SE actually makes Tanks feel like tanks and not just another DPS with simplified rotation. What makes it worse is that the community pushes the notion that DPS melds are more important than the actual stats intended for tanking as well. (Determination and Tenacity) I don't agree with it but I understand why that thread was created asking for the tank stances to be removed...everyone's basically a DPS class anyway. Kill things quick, run dungeons faster.

And I'm not saying tanks shouldn't DPS. I like big numbers as well. It just seems like it's made to be a priority in this game sometimes.

[ReiMakoto]

My thing is I hope SE actually makes Tanks feel like tanks and not just another DPS with simplified rotation. What makes it worse is that the community pushes the notion that DPS melds are more important than the actual stats intended for tanking as well. (Determination and Tenacity) I don't agree with it but I understand why that thread was created asking for the tank stances to be removed...everyone's basically a DPS class anyway. Kill things quick, run dungeons faster.

And I'm not saying tanks shouldn't DPS. I like big numbers as well. It just seems like it's made to be a priority in this game sometimes.

Thats because Determination and Tenacity don't make a noticable difference whereas crit and the like do. Also the best mitigation is killing a fight quicker, and its not like you're taking an unreasonable amount of damage anyway that you would need what tenacity and to a lesser extent det is providing.

[ksuyen]

From the clip, it seems GUN has one or several skills to create bubble like shield to mitigate damage. If we speculated anything like Leonhart's skill, it would similiar to Twinlance, Punishment and Lionheart: Ex Core Absorption 10, 20 and 30%. Some other interesting skills include: Devastating Slug (Quickly close in on your opponent and mow them down. Creates an opportunity to cancel into another bravery attack.) Fated Circle (Spin around if grounded somersault if airborne and shoot an explosive slug from your gunblade.) Again, these are skills assumed that the new GUN is anything similiar to Leonhart.

[Kalise]

My thing is I hope SE actually makes Tanks feel like tanks and not just another DPS with simplified rotation. What makes it worse is that the community pushes the notion that DPS melds are more important than the actual stats intended for tanking as well. (Determination and Tenacity) I don't agree with it but I understand why that thread was created asking for the tank stances to be removed...everyone's basically a DPS class anyway. Kill things quick, run dungeons faster.

And I'm not saying tanks shouldn't DPS. I like big numbers as well. It just seems like it's made to be a priority in this game sometimes.

Yeah, but it's not a particularly easy fix.

DPS scales infinitely, once you can survive everything that the game will throw at you (I.e. Tankbusters, the only appreciable amount of damage thrown the Tanks way) the only thing left to do is stack damage. Since it doesn't matter if you survive the tankbuster at 1% life or at 51% life, either way, you're not dead and you're getting healed back up immediately after. Meanwhile, there is a notable difference between killing a boss in 10 minutes and killing a boss in 9 minutes.

Meaning that the options are something like: Tune damage to tanks so that stacking mitigation is always warranted (But the downside is it makes lower geared Tanks really difficult to play if not outright impossible due to incoming damage) or provide an alternate means of enhancing a parties overall DPS in a way that relies on stacking non-DPS focused stats and utilizing defensive abilities such as Tank stances and/or enmity combos (But the downside is you might just get the same thing happening, building mitigation stats up until a breakpoint, then stack DPS. Or invalidating the use of DPS stances)

Though, at the very least while they're working on fixing this, it'd be nice to just get some more interesting rotations. Less "1 > Enmity 2 > Enmity 3 + 1 > DPS 2 > DPS 3" and more actual diversity and you know... Engagement... With Tank rotations. Even if you keep the Enmity combo just the simple 123 chain so idiots can still play tank and get enmity, at least if we have to spam DPS combos for eternity make them somewhat interesting and actually different between the tanks in more ways than "Oh, PLD gets a DoT and WAR has a dmg buff to maintain"

[Phoenicia]

First of all, I don't get the whole "we don't feel like tanks" argument.. We already take less than half the damage none tanks do out of our tank stance. We also have almost twice their health and we survive shit no non-tank can dream of.

Snip.

No matter how much they increase tank buster damage, it is not going to change the way we gear. I mean currently tank busters do twice our health in damage (and if they still don't feel like a tank now I don't know what will) . Or they are so frequent that they exhaust our CDs.

If "feeling like a tank" is to put on a turtle shell on your back, walk slow and carry a shield then you're playing the wrong game. Even in medieval armor offense was taken into account when armor was made.

I am very pro-best mitigation is high offense. I think most people that don't "feel like a tank because no tank stats" don't even do savage. In o10s, there is this small dragon add that is immune to damage while nails are alive. This dragon cleaves for a fk tonne of damage and Very frequently. It WILL exhaust your defensive very quickly. Unless you and your team kills the nails within a minute, you will sit in tank stance and probably die. Not to mention it is a DPS check where the boss will wipe the raid if dragon dies late.

But if I hypothetically want tank stats to be a real thing, the way to force tanks to want to build defensively is change this predictable pattern of damage (where it is chip vs TB) to be unpredictable where randomly the boss will do a highly damaging attack.

A better way even, is what WOW is doing, offensive stats provide mitigation. Strength/Agility provides parry chance and block value for people that use shields. Critical adds parry chance with diminishing returns, haste reduces the CDs of their active mitigation (in FFXIV PLD would have more sheltrons because faster autos) and so on. But then again, Wow decided to reduce boss damage and nerf tanks' mitigation so damage is not as scary for non-tanks. A weird change imo.

As for rotations, tanks' rotations in many MMOs are getting streamlined to make them more accessible since it is the least played role due to tankxiety (the main reason many people don't do or quit tanks). In WOW tanks are the only classes that have their single target and AoE rotations being the same. In here we have 1 button AoE rotations and no serious "keep 2 DoTs, a debuff and a buff up" rotations for tanks. Less complex rotations also allows less capable players to still focus on mechanics and mitigation since a tank's mistake is much more impactful than a DPS's.

[Jandor]

My thing is I hope SE actually makes Tanks feel like tanks and not just another DPS with simplified rotation.

I feel like a tank when I'm tanking. Things that would kill other party members don't kill me.

I quite like the focus on DPSing too, makes the role "feel" more plausible, like the mob is attacking me because I'm an actual threat and not because it feels like attacking an indestructible brick wall for no readily apparent reason.

I also like the relatively simple rotations, because I'm a clumsy doofus that panic mashes my keyboard.

I'd make some tweaks here and there, but for the most part I like how tanks are at the moment.

[Kalise]

First of all, I don't get the whole "we don't feel like tanks" argument.. We already take less than half the damage none tanks do out of our tank stance. We also have almost twice their health and we survive shit no non-tank can dream of.

Usually the "We don't feel like tanks" thing comes down to the fact that tanks don't end up using tank tools or stats very often.

Enmity combos are nigh useless, tank stance is avoided like the plague, active mitigation skills don't exist (The ones that do, aren't needed so aren't used), taunts are pretty much relegated to Raids only and so much positioning of bosses is done by scripts rather than Tank input.

Sure, Tanks take less damage. But outside of that and the defensive CD they pop for Tankbusters, they are just DPS, using just DPS tools to maximize their damage output (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing to do, it however, can feel kind of lame when that's the ONLY thing to do)

No matter how much they increase tank buster damage, it is not going to change the way we gear. I mean currently tank busters do twice our health in damage (and if they still don't feel like a tank now I don't know what will) . Or they are so frequent that they exhaust our CDs.

Well, I never mentioned anything about increasing tankbuster damage. If anything, increasing damage outside of tankbusters would promote more defenses. Though without adjustments to how tanks actually play, it'd still have the same effect of "Get tanky enough to survive the maximum burst damage you'll receive" and then "Stack DPS stats and DPS combos"

If "feeling like a tank" is to put on a turtle shell on your back, walk slow and carry a shield then you're playing the wrong game.

As I mentioned, dealing damage is not an issue. Trying to maximize your damage output as a tank is not an issue. The issue is, when "Being a tank" is literally just playing a beefy DPS.

There should be more Tank related actions and tools used to be able to sit there and take that beating. With DPS focused play being a REWARD for being a good tank, rather than the core gameplay.

I am very pro-best mitigation is high offense. I think most people that don't "feel like a tank because no tank stats" don't even do savage.

Again, dealing damage is not the problem here. It's the fact that the tank is literally just a (Simplified) DPS with a bunch of passive mitigation. If active mitigation was more of a thing, so that a tank would make a choice between maximizing damage output or minimizing damage input that would be fine, you'd still feel like a tank but you'd also have the plays available to smash out maximum damage to burst down mechanics that need it as well as being able to try and play well enough to use mitigation enough to survive while maximizing damage output to beat enrage timers.

But if I hypothetically want tank stats to be a real thing, the way to force tanks to want to build defensively is change this predictable pattern of damage (where it is chip vs TB) to be unpredictable where randomly the boss will do a highly damaging attack.

As I mentioned above, this still runs into the same issue, where it merely delays the point where tank stats become disregarded and DPS stats prioritized. Since randomly high damage still just means you just build defence until the highest burst you'll take (Be it a Tankbuster with your weakest CD's active, or one of these random high damage hits) won't kill you and then it's pointless to have any more defense.

A better way even, is what WOW is doing, offensive stats provide mitigation. Strength/Agility provides parry chance and block value for people that use shields. Critical adds parry chance with diminishing returns, haste reduces the CDs of their active mitigation (in FFXIV PLD would have more sheltrons because faster autos) and so on.

This actually doesn't help at all, this only reinforces the fact that Tanks want DPS stats more so than the designated Tank stats. Since, not only will the DPS stats be providing you with more DPS but now they're also giving you the defensive bonuses that the Tank stats are?

If anything, the OPPOSITE would be more ideal, allowing Tanks to get additional damage from VIT/DET/TEN in some form so that they're not just completely eclipsed by DPS stats in terms of damage output.

Even better would be some sort of mechanic for tanks to improve party DPS that scales with VIT/DET/TEN so that there's the choice and decisions between gearing for personal vs party DPS.

As for rotations, tanks' rotations in many MMOs are getting streamlined to make them more accessible since it is the least played role due to tankxiety (the main reason many people don't do or quit tanks).

And how has this been working out for them?

Tanks are still the least played role. Partly because non-Tank players try them, then say they're boring and go back to infinitely more fun DPS/Healers.

Meanwhile, actual Tank players, get bored of getting idiot-proofed all the time and quit to go play something actually fun.

Also, this is why I mentioned how they could keep a simple Enmity rotation, so that newbie tanks can still perform Tank duties by using a simple combo and focusing on mechanics and mitigation.

While still leaving the eventual expanding of their confidence and abilities into a more interesting full rotation, giving the role better engagement factor allowing DPS mains to have more fun when they try out tanking as well as making tank mains not get bored of pressing 123 forever while barely looking at the screen because half the time they only care about pre-determined tankbusters and swaps...