Blue Mage might actually be a good thing.

[Thayos]

TBH I have no stake in this BLU (rage hahaha) discussion until the system comes out and I can test it I can neither say it's a good idea or a bad one.

In that, we agree. I had no desire to switch my main to Blu before Fan Fast, and I definitely don't really care about playing it now. The ONLY reason I chimed in here is to push back against the notion that "anything can be endgame." FFXIV is like five years old now (in its current form) and very set in its ways. It's possible that SE could expand the limited job system and someday give it its own form of endgame, but that's a long ways off and not guaranteed to happen.

So let me ask you this... if you could do o12s with a level 1 character without ever having to do any lead up to it and then level to 70 would you still call it "end" game?

I'd call that bad game design, ha. Yes, I would call that endgame, but that would be difficult balancing the benefits of doing endgame BEFORE embarking on your character's foundational leveling curve. I'm sure it could be done, but it would be wonky and not make much sense from a lore perspective.

[Fyce]

FFXIV's endgame is very clear and easily defined. As it stands, Blu's place in endgame is highly questionable. I doubt the job will have much long-term appeal if it has no place in endgame.

Not every appealing thing in a theme park MMORPG have to be related to end game, nor does it has to have a long-term appeal. Actually very few things are like that. That's why they are called "theme park MMORPGs".

[Thayos]

Not every appealing thing in a theme park MMORPG have to be related to end game, nor does it has to have a long-term appeal. Actually very few things are like that. That's why they are called "theme park MMORPGs".

Right, but I'm assuming the devs are going to burn a lot of resources on Blu and other limited jobs, and I don't want this system going to way of LoV (or pretty much the entire Golden Saucer).

Again, I'm not criticizing Blu or saying it won't be fun. I really don't care. I'm just saying it's not endgame.

You and me, we have no beef. You don't appear to be trying to portray Blu as endgame. You're keeping it real. It's potentially fun side content. That's fine, but I have legit worries about the limited job system's long-term viability if that's all it ever is. This isn't crafting or decorating a house. Most people who enjoy battle content won't want to focus on a job that can't participate in the game's best battle content (which is endgame content).

[Melichoir]

False. Just because you've chosen to "end" your progress in the the game at a certain point does not change where the game actually ends. You're "end game" may only be to complete every entry in the sightseeing log, but that doesn't make the sightseeing log in and of itself "end game". You can't just go changing the definitions of words to fit your argument, well you can, but everyone else has the right to correct your inappropriate usage of the term. "Endgame" is defined as the final stage of game. Currently, this is Alphascape V4.0 (Savage). If you're not there, you're not at endgame.

Im arguing semantics to be very specific. As I said, most people use End Game in reference to raids, this is not all people. Because some people do not view Raiding as important. Consider an example I put forward: Are Raiders really reaching End game compared to Completionists?

I put that in there specifically because Completionists go FURTHER than Raiders. Their "END GAME" is to get 100% in the achievements. This would also include Raiding, as well as other stuff. Why is their definition of End Game not as accepted? Is it because "End Game" is subjective?

Ding ding ding!

The game inadvertently sets 'end points' in certain content. These end points can be end games. The end game of lvling might be "Get to LvL 70", or "Get all chacters to LvL 70." Some people set up their own "End Games." Make 100 Million. Get a house. Own All the Glamours. Get all the 'x' Mounts.

It varies. This is why Im keen on what were defining. Because one argument is stating that "BLU dont get End Game, therefor it is invalid", where what is specifically being talked about is "BLU wont be able to raid Prog."

This isn't crafting or decorating a house. Most people who enjoy battle content won't want to focus on a job that can't participate in the game's best battle content (which is endgame content).

Even this technically is an assumption. We dotn know the lvl 50 content of BLU. It could be the best (and funnest) Battle content. We dont know. Its not yet out. It's all assumptions on how "viable" it is.

Again, youre position is "End Game" is Raid. As I pointed above, why is it that, and not 100% achievement? Why is one valued above the other, when IF you wanted to be objective, completionist has more at stake. Raid just requires participation, completionist requires mastery of all things in the game.

[Kallera]

Raids aren't where blu starts to get restricted. don't They get restricted before this, from most duty finder parties at max level? In addition, they are only planning to start rectifying this in 5.x, that can easily become over a year past its release, until it even touches Shadowbringer's dungeons and it still won't be playing current content. the BLU may seem overpowered, but it is going to fight mobs other players have already destroyed on their mains months ago, with no sign it will ever catch up. Why would anyone looking to get in on Shadowbringer do this to themself?

[Thayos]

Again, youre position is "End Game" is Raid. As I pointed above, why is it that, and not 100% achievement?

Because achievements don't matter. Even having every single achievement doesn't matter. It's all basically a minigame. It's more about completion than endgame, and those things are not the same.

FFXIV's endgame is clear. It is not fishing, collecting vistas, decorating your house (even with the best decorations), or playing in the Golden Saucer.

I'd love for XIV to have a more diversified endgame and not be so limited to eight-man raiding. But a solo-specific job with an exclusive high-level minigame is not an expansion of endgame.

[Fyce]

Right, but I'm assuming the devs are going to burn a lot of resources on Blu and other limited jobs, and I don't want this system going to way of LoV (or pretty much the entire Golden Saucer).

Again, I'm not criticizing Blu or saying it won't be fun. I really don't care. I'm just saying it's not endgame.

You and me, we have no beef. You don't appear to be trying to portray Blu as endgame. You're keeping it real. It's potentially fun side content. That's fine, but I have legit worries about the limited job system's long-term viability if that's all it ever is. This isn't crafting or decorating a house. Most people who enjoy battle content won't want to focus on a job that can't participate in the game's best battle content (which is endgame content).

That's right, I'm absolutly not saying that BLU mage is end game content, no. That'd be absurd. What people argue about is to say that it's new content, but that's not the definition of "end game content". It's simply "newly released content". End game content is content that you do at the end of the game (ie. what comes after max level and MSQ). That's it. BLU being restricted to players having at least one class 50+ and having finished 2.0 MSQ can hardly be considered end game content. The only way it can be considered end game would be for players playing without any expac.
So yeah, we agree on that one. To some degree.

My comment was to say that having content that doesn't deliver an infinite amount of playability is fine, and that being end game content or not hardly constitutes something relevant. At least to people who don't strictly care about end game content. The Gold Sauced was never end game content, yet it was definitly good content. It also doesn't have an infinite replay value when it comes to its rewards. The only content it has is only the ony the devs make and release for it. (There's quite a lot of things to do, but you get the idea. It's "finite content" for the most part).

Just enjoy the content as much as you can, and that's it. If it does end somewhere, well, too bad, but at least you had a good time with it. That's pretty much what video games are about.

[Optee]

I'd call that bad game design, ha. Yes, I would call that endgame, but that would be difficult balancing the benefits of doing endgame BEFORE embarking on your character's foundational leveling curve. I'm sure it could be done, but it would be wonky and not make much sense from a lore perspective.

But I am not asking if it's fun, good design or even satisfying. If there is a start, middle, and end then the end can be defined as the result of the reaching the finish line from your starting point. I mean I get it, in the context of FF14 currently the endgame for leveling your character from level 1 class to level 70 job is to raid o12s and if it was Ultimate #3 then that would be the final endgame. But the end result is this, SE decided to not release Ultimate #3 doesn't mean that o12s isn't endgame just that the goal post was moved. And if a DoL/DoH is also defied as a job that has a start, middle then they also can have an end and thus an endgame. That's why there can be more than one end game and while I agree not everything is endgame and side content does exist, I do think that just raiding isn't it because in the context of FF14, there are several "jobs" that have a start, middle, and end. So yes there are multiple finish lines. Some you reach faster, some require you group up, some require you to group up sometimes.

Raids aren't where blu starts to get restricted. don't They get restricted before this, from most duty finder parties at max level?

According to the LL and slides, they are being released at the max level of 50 so they won't be able to do current content because they are capped at level 50.

In addition, thsy are only planning to rectify this in 5.x, that can easily become over a year past its release, until it even touches Shadowbringer's dungeons and it still won't be playing current content.

Because this information hasn't been released, deliberating over it doesn't seem productive. Is it possible that they won't do current content in ShB? Yes. But it is also possible that they will, there is not enough information regarding this for it to be an actual issue. Cautiously in the back of our minds certainly but nothing worth discussing over.

[Acidblood]

Thing is, with this logic they should just stop adding new jobs altogether because they wouldn't be all that different and would add more competition, what you're suggesting starts a very slippery slope that I think no one wants us to go down.

Please do not include me in your opinion.

FFXIV has a very limited combat system; adding more and more jobs means less and less truly differentiating them. We haven't hit the limit yet, but we are approaching it, and already have significant issues with the likes of AST stepping on WHM, and 'pure' jobs that are little more than viable because giving them more DPS would make them OP in smaller group content.

So no, short of them expanding the combat system (which is the opposite of what they have been doing so far), focusing on existing jobs and creating interesting 'limited' jobs, at the expense of 'new' jobs, is not such a bad idea.

[Soupa]

I hate this attitude.
I've been playing for well over a year now and I've never been completely up to date with current raids. I've had a blast playing through the entire MSQ, and each and every past raid tier, its been great and I've never felt the need to just rush to the end.
According to this outlook, I've only ever played "minigames". That's just nuts. 90% of this game, or more, is not 'the current raid tier' and loads of people still play it all the time.
Even Eureka is still packed. Content isnt "obsolete" just because its not the latest raid. This IS real content, its not "minigames".

This, I dunno why everyone thinks things need to be relevant or tied to endgame.