Tank Stance Redesign

[NyneSwordz]

Here, I'll start off. I hope this catches on, and I hope we get good feedback from the community to the point where the developers will take notice (and perhaps comment!).

(1) I love tanking because I like getting into the thick of the fight! More specifically, I enjoy the responsibility of controlling the boss. I enjoy having to move or position the boss. This is essential. Without this duty to control or position the boss, tanking is just utterly boring to me. I can't stand STANDING in place and tanking. I need the challenge of knowing when to move the boss this way, or when to turn the boss this way or that way.
To that end, I REALLY WISH interrupting was a thing for tanks again! I want brutal swing back for my War! And I want fights to be designed so that I will need to use it at key points to avoid a tank buster. Please make this a thing. Perhaps add in like a marker to indicate when you need to stun even (Although, I prefer no marker, but a marker is okay too if the devs think this is needed help those who aren't so into being super alert during the fight). Maybe a giant "!" mark on the monster's head? I don't know. I just want to use stuns again.

The second thing that really makes tanking fun for me is being able to time mitigation. I really enjoy being forced to time a holmgang or an inner beast to avoid a tank buster. Active mitigation in the sense that it's timed is really fun. So for this, I'd like to make it so that tanks are encouraged to sit on meter, and challenged to decided when to use it for mitigation versus when to use it for dps. Right now, I feel like cooldown abilities not tied to meter are used for tanking, while meter is pretty much used for dps. To this end, maybe prune the number of cooldown/role action mitigation abilities? And force tanks to use their job specific abilities (which are tied to meter/resources) for mitigation. And then work the encounter so that a skilled tank with great timing can optimize his dps by selectively using meter. Slow down meter usage a bit - instead of building it up then dumping it as fast as possible. Make building it up faster, but make it so that its not bad tanking to sit on meter, but instead, a smart tank knowing the encounter will be able to time his meter usage precisely for mitigation or defense! Maybe make invuln abilities like holmgang tied to meter.

Lastly, tanking is fun because there's a dps component to it. I don't want it to go away. But I want the dps component of tanking to be, like the mitigation part of tanking, timed and not spammy. I like the idea of dps windows. Maybe rework tanking or design encounters so that there are a max number of dps windows open to a tank for any given encounter. So, let's say, for encounter A there's 10 possible dps windows open to a tank given that he perfectly manages meter, manages the generation of meter, manages the use of it for mitigation. So a perfect tank has meter to take advantage of all 10 dps windows. A less skilled tank who inefficiently uses meter for mitigation might only be able to take advantage of lets say 7, and down we go.

So, to this end, I guess what I'm advocating is against tanks always in dps stance (unless theyre off tanks). I'll leave it at that.

(2) I'm a War. So I'll talk about War only. For me, I like War because he tanks with a big 2 handed weapon, and he hits HARD. Also, I like War, because he HAD this berserker vibe, where he heals BY DOING DAMAGE. The sacrifice for greater dps, or greater burst dps, is that he doesn't have as much mitigation as a paladin. Right now, Wars have a ton of cooldown defense abilities, but most don't fit him at all thematically. That alone makes them less fun to use. I don't know what the proposed change would be, maybe like the OP suggested, merge the old bloodlust into unchained? That would be cool.

Maybe allow for rage generation outside of battle again? And then tie the new bloodlust/unchained to meter? Create some kind of tension/choice between the new unchained for steady, moderate over-time sustain versus the high mitigation but low duration of inner beast v fell cleave spam for dps? Something like that would be cool.

(3) Well, I kinda didn't stick to the format I laid out because I mentioned skill changes above. But I hope this was somewhat constructive.

Let's keep the suggestions rolling. I hope this becomes a good thread.

[Khalithar]

I'd say it's time to scrap some abilities and create some real estate on our hotbars. This may not be a popular opinion and it might even be unlikely, but I'd say it's time to scrap the stances entirely and revamp the passive/active abilities for the tanks.

[Jandor]

The stances can be used to save space though, warrior is definitely the neatest on my hotbars.

[Tint]

The second thing that really makes tanking fun for me is being able to time mitigation. I really enjoy being forced to time a holmgang or an inner beast to avoid a tank buster. Active mitigation in the sense that it's timed is really fun. So for this, I'd like to make it so that tanks are encouraged to sit on meter, and challenged to decided when to use it for mitigation versus when to use it for dps.

They have just gotten rid of this for DRK, they removed the Dark Arts requirement for Dark Mind and buffed the damage of DA Power Slash, so it's not anymore a decision between dps or mitigation / dps or enmity. They still have TBN for defense and Dark Arts for damage wich both usees the same ressource, but you get the damage refunded when you use TBN properly and the shield breaks.

So I don't think something where you have to decide between damage or mitigation will coming back.

But yeah, as a DRK you basically already sit on your mana and decide if you use it for Dark Arts or TBN, while never capping it and never bottom it out completely.

[ArianeEwah]

Snip

Thank you for your input, NyneSwordz.

It seems you are not the only one who wishes for more active mitigation play, most likely similar to WoW as other in this thread already pointed that out. They increase thier defense and DPS by contributing great (DPS/rotation) play to the party. And I don't want to that to go either. That would reduce tank play to plain mitigation, aggro and position play. That alone is not challanging, on the contrary imho it's the least difficult task in the game. (I don't know about WoW, never played it more than 1 week a few years ago, and never touched tank there.)

The problem with WAR having self heal, they lost it with the end of HW. (As a matter of fact, it was indeed too strong then.) SE gave them a strong, then a weaker life leech in buffing Steel Cyclone instead. On the one hand, they made Defiance more appealing because it provides more sustain for the cost of damage. On the other hand, it is still lacking. Healing abilities are not affected by the healing buff and the insane damage loss. (Also, since SB they reduced the portion of life leech effects at level 61-70 because they added Tenacity; 50% life leech before are now ~40-45%, maybe higher with big Tenacity numbers - which still doesn't affect other roles than tanks, tho. This whole system is a mess.)

As you said there are other things than just tank stance that need to be looked at to make tanks fun to play. I just wanna focus on one aspect first, a design change of 3 whole jobs is too much. (At least for me.) Just giving ideas on how it could work well in the current system is enough.


On a side note. I read many comments about making enmity and mitigation more difficult. This is a game design change, not necessarily pinned down to tank stances.

[Lyth]

Stances are implemented effectively on certain jobs (WAR, MNK) and poorly on others (DRK). The biggest problem is that the game often actively discourages you from swapping due to resource costs (MP) or GCD losses. There's also an implementation difference between swapping between two stances (Defiance -> Deliverance) and simply turning off a stance (Grit -> no stance). The former functions like a true oGCD, while the latter can only occur when the global cooldown resets. The end result is that stances like Grit and Darkside can tend to "stick" when you try to turn them off. This is also what made Cleric Stance so frustrating to work with, prior to Stormblood.

The follow-up problem is that while you're discouraged from swapping stances, stances are then used to gate access to certain abilities, which then hardly see any use. And it's not like DRK has the actions to spare, either. We have the fewest number of actions out of any tank after Stormblood's role action system plundered our skillset.

So yes, I'd be in favour of removing stances completely. We have more than enough mitigation tools at the moment (too much, in fact).

...

The reason why a number of WAR's cooldowns don't really fit thematically is because they've been added in response to abilities on other tanks. Raw Intuition was introduced in Heavensward as a sort of physical Rampart substitute. But delicately parrying attacks with your greataxe doesn't really fit the barbarian aesthetic. Shake it off has been turned into WAR's answer to Divine Veil (and a better one, at that), but since when can non-spellcasters erect magical barriers to shield their teammates?

The driving problem here is this mindset that we have to have an answer for every unique ability that another tank has. You gave someone a gap closer? WAR needs a gap closer. You gave someone a party-wide shield? WAR needs a party-wide shield. Why can that other tank redirect damage from another party member to themselves? WAR needs that too. You could introduce a tank with a jetpack tomorrow, and sure enough, a patch later, you'll see jetpack-wearing barbarians, as per popular demand.

The end result is this Frankenstein monstrosity of a job that delicately parries attacks with an axe, throws out magical barriers, reflects damage, and drains their opponents' life energy. There's about four or five different tank concepts packed inside.

I think that you need to keep it simple. WAR's appeal comes from big numbers. It's that feeling when you activate Inner Release, activate your hardest hitting abilities, and watch those exclamation marks fly. It's also that feeling when you activate your defensive abilities and watch your HP totals skyrocket. HP boosts that let you shrug off attacks are nearly synonymous with WAR. Why is this not a bigger part of the job defensively?

Another recurring theme with WAR is the interplay between their offensive burst and their defenses. In Heavensward, Raw Intuition and Vengeance were used to generate additional Fell Cleaves during Berserk. In Stormblood, Thrill of Battle is used to make Upheaval stronger.

If you wanted to make this sort of interaction more explicit, give Inner Release some defensive properties as well. It already prevents knockback. There's no reason why you couldn't pick up some damage resistance or bonus HP to shrug off damage while enraged. You could then clean out some of WAR's cooldown bloat in other areas.

As far as DRK is concerned, it seems that our identity seems to shift constantly. We've been parry tanks, magic tanks, and now barrier tanks. It seems like every time we try to specialise in something, another tank comes along and does it better.

If you want to make DRK unique, there is one thing that we absolutely have to stake a claim in. This job has 27 years worth of series lore attached to it. We're meant to be this game's lifesteal tank.

The problem is that as part of the infinite wisdom of 1.x, MRD, and by extension WAR, were grandfathered into the concept. So we have a few elements of lifesteal on each tank, but neither is able to properly commit. Which is unfortunate, because there's clearly popular demand for such a tank.

The tools are already there. Souleater's lifesteal doesn't need to be stance locked if it's tuned appropriately. You want to make Bloodspiller not feel like a cheap Fell Cleave knockoff? We're never going to be able to compete in burst potential. Why not have it drain some HP instead? Abyssal Drain remains one of the only instances in which Dark Arts is a strict dps loss. Why not just make the HP stealing baseline?

None of these have to be for large amounts of HP. In fact, it's better when the HP arrives in smaller amounts. It's not designed to replace incoming healing. It just has to help smooth out incoming damage, similar to how block or parry function.

[Shurrikhan]

I like this thread!

But before we get into discussions about skills and traits, could we agree on some sort of format regarding the discussion going forward? That way, we won't get bogged down fighting over the details, and the whole thread could be more constructive as a whole?

I propose this format:

(1) First, we discuss what GENERALLY makes tanking fun and enjoyable. What makes us WANT to be tanks in the first place.
(2) Second, we discuss what makes a SPECIFIC tank fun or enjoyable. That is, what makes a paladin the choice for you? Or what, thematically, makes Dark or War fun? Your discussion, your thematic take on your tank of choice goes here.
(3) Third, we can get into the nitty gritty, and discuss what skills and abilities we think will fulfill the criteria we set forth in part (1) and part (2). In other words, here, we talk about the skills and abilities that will make tanking fun in GENERAL, and make tanking fun as a dark, pld, or war SPECIFICALLY.

What do you guys think?

Quoting in full because I'd like more to see these questions; they seem highly useful.

(1) I'm not a huge fan of tanking in tab-target MMOs, but in games such as Overwatch I enjoy tanks because there is a very distinct skillset and perspective to combat from such classes in how tightly their synergies work with others and that they have real support mechanisms (as compared to support solely through reconditioning the encounter -- i.e. by intimidating enemies), by which to make space for their party. When combat involves things that must be actively defended against it feels far more tangible to me. The attraction, though, is less in playing a tank -- though I do greatly enjoy doing so when I can make full use of its toolkit -- as the fact that an organically "tank-ish" skillset can be of use. It's the nuance of encounters made possible by the depth of undermechanics that makes that enthralls me. As such, I hate enmity as a rigid metric with a passion, and those who insist on its place in a game without allowing for improvements to its system and its peripheries seem to me only to glorify the basest and cheapest possible form of mob scripting, as if they took pleasure in gutting what more encounters could otherwise be.

(2) I mained a Warrior in ARR, a Paladin in early SB, and most often played DRK in HW, especially before the move from purely STR-based tank AP. That said, I play all three, and enjoy all three for different reasons. Paladin was probably my favorite OT in HW, and DRK my favorite MT, with DRK and WAR tied for favorite dungeon-runner. In SB, all three are quite enjoyable, but I've actually played WAR the least, in dungeons or 8-mans, and run dungeons most often on DRK.

For brevity, I'll pretend I have a favorite -- DRK. In HW I loved DRK because it had a near-constant sense of urgency, and it had ways (like Warrior, but less often dismissed, at least in dungeon-running) by which to gain rDPS through sacrificing offense for defense, namely through DA-DD or DA-DM. I liked that. Perhaps more importantly though, it just felt like bastardish blackguard of a tank, kicking and clawing and decapitating. One of my favorite aesthetics has always been the armored, but still well maneuverable, longswordsman -- best imagined as a cross between some manner of a Witcher without the ridiculous spinning, and something much more likely to kick your knee out its back once your sword's been parried low, and behead you merely as a shortest path to the next parry. DRK couldn't quite provide that, but it came close. And it was a hell of a ride. I felt like we lost a fair bit when SB hit, but I've actually ran into one of my favorite actions since: popping Blood Weapon-Delirium DA-Quietus spams among 12+ targets for 250+ AoE potency every GCD for 10 GCDs straight. Coupled with the ability to freely DA-AD, it has this feeling of going all in. Against more weakly-hitting packs, it is actually safer to drop Grit and simply weave in the occasional massive self-heal than to attempt to ride out the blows with Grit and BP, or especially once BP's about fallen off. And I love that. I like offense sometimes being the best defense. And the fact that it isn't consistently available grants it a very enjoyable sense of punctuation -- things die now (not so well as Berserk-Deci spam, and for no huge bonus elsewhere, but still).

(3) Cover, Intervention, Blood Weapon in combination with Quietus, TBN, and Holmgang. Those are the only truly prominent skills to me.

_______________________

(Hereafter does not adhere to format.)

I honestly think tanking needs a full rework, not (just) via each tank's toolkits, but from the role -- or, better said, the task -- of tanking, itself. Enmity needs to be far less rigid, as to involve far deeper and wider ranges of decisions, participation, and nuance. I honestly believe that PvP becomes most doomed to fail when a game refused to look beyond schedules of raid attacks for PvE design (encouraging only memorization), never touching mob scripts or behaviors (which would encourage rapid acquisition and adaptation). Ultimately, the two paths -- schedules and scripts -- end very similarly, but the linearity of the first forgoes latitudinal decision-making, and in the absence of such a need, toolkits tend to allow for or encourage little of it. When one then reaches PvP, which, simple quality of design to mitigate latency issues and the like permitting, then desires latitudinal decision-making, the PvE systems feel bloated in some regards and badly underequipped in others. It is better then to design for a PvE experience that is at least effectively capable of the sorts of play that one would expect from a compelling PvP experience. And enmity is not part of that. Perceived threat is. One can draw ire from players. One can distract attention away from more valuable targets. But it is no rigid metric. A tank's toolkit, be it in PvE or PvP, ought to be one which can not only influence enemy offensive behavior, but can directly thwart it -- or at least with greater reliability, control, and/or versatility than a class not specialized as a "tank" -- in a way that would work as well on player foes as on mobs.

Once, and only once, that change in design philosophy can be manifest should we then see to polishing out the aesthetics, identities, and internal and external synergies of each tanks' toolkits, providing each with consistently enjoyable but distinct rhythms of play and intuitive ability designs and buttonflows. I suspect that will mean a bit of streamlining, though in a "good" way -- doubling down on the best and most synergetic parts of each identity (Warrior's big numbers, going-ham mode, HP recovery and HP maximum growth, for instance). But I suspect also that will mean a great deal more undermechanical depth, more granular and versatile uses of resources -- be they damage-to-resource mechanics, more to do with job gauge meters, or whatever else -- and perhaps even entire new systems of, say, Suppression, but to me at least it would be more than worth the effort.

[Ekimmak]

I like this thread!

But before we get into discussions about skills and traits, could we agree on some sort of format regarding the discussion going forward? That way, we won't get bogged down fighting over the details, and the whole thread could be more constructive as a whole?

I propose this format:

(1) First, we discuss what GENERALLY makes tanking fun and enjoyable. What makes us WANT to be tanks in the first place.
(2) Second, we discuss what makes a SPECIFIC tank fun or enjoyable. That is, what makes a paladin the choice for you? Or what, thematically, makes Dark or War fun? Your discussion, your thematic take on your tank of choice goes here.
(3) Third, we can get into the nitty gritty, and discuss what skills and abilities we think will fulfill the criteria we set forth in part (1) and part (2). In other words, here, we talk about the skills and abilities that will make tanking fun in GENERAL, and make tanking fun as a dark, pld, or war SPECIFICALLY.

What do you guys think?

(1)
Generally, the first thing (shamefully) is always the queue times. I enjoy being in demand.

But more importantly, I like the fun of tanking in the really hard fights. Each fight is a memorisation task: I have to learn each moment of heavy incoming damage (not just tankbusters, Kefka Savage will teach you the danger of unrelenting auto-attacks when he isn't casting telegraph hell), and the proper rotation of cooldowns to ensure I can respond properly. I've tried DPS'ing, and I cannot that complex a rotation. But for some reason, it works for tanking.

(2)
Specifically? I like WAR and DRK, but can't really say why. I can say why I dislike PLD though: it just feels so useless. I don't read parse numbers, it's too depressing for me. But with PLD,the majority of my power comes from the very simple rotation of 1 goring blade, 2 royal authorities. That's it. Their "burst" phases are fairly unimpressive. They don't feel rewarding for pulling off, like I'm doing anything significant by saving up MP for spamming Holy Spirit, or using Fight or Flight period. I may be awful at DRK, but it feels satisfying to squeeze in Plunge+C&S during blood weapon, or using a Dark Arts/Dark Passenger. It would be nice if there was something to vary the Soul Eater spam, but for the most part, it *feels* like I'm doing something significant when I play right.

I suppose that's the same reason I like War. I understand it enough that it feels like I'm doing something significant when I time all my cooldowns to ensure I get the optimal DPS.


As for (3)... beats me. I guess TBN feels good because it means I still contribute to MT survival even as an offtank. People like to rag on DRK for not being able to group shield, but after a few runs of O10S, I can see the weakness in WAR from not having a partner support skill. That said, the group shield skills (and reprisal) also feel good to use, because I always time them for raidwide damage, and knowing that I've contributed to reducing that feels nice.

Other things enjoyed: timing Vengeance/Blood Price for rapid attacks, since that means I get rapid amounts of MP/counterattacks: being able to take solo Ultimate Embrace by piling on every cooldown (excluding the death immunities)... I think if we want to make Tank Stance useful, I'd personally make it more mitigation focused. So going into Tank Stance makes everybody tougher, not just you. Whether that would be by introducing a damage debuff to it overall, or buffing reprisal, or what... I think people would be a lot less inclined against it in new learning content, and I feel like that's where it's most important.

[whiskeybravo]

The longer the conversation the more incoherent the arguments.

The biggest problem is that the game often actively discourages you from swapping due to resource costs (MP) or GCD losses.

Not really, it's actually the playerbase that discourages you from swapping stances - the game makes it as easy as pressing one button. The negative connotation attached to purposely reducing your damage in favor of mitigation comes from other players only.

Raw Intuition was introduced in Heavensward as a sort of physical Rampart substitute. But delicately parrying attacks with your greataxe doesn't really fit the barbarian aesthetic.

Inner Beast was War's Rampart equivalent. Raw Intuition is more like Bulwark's counterpart. Dark dance was also a thing. All tanks had a "physical" only cooldown. Whether parrying fits the "barbarian" theme or not, the game allows all jobs to randomly parry physical attacks. The concept of a tank job being able to parry on demand, or have a higher chance of parrying compared to others, is not entirely out of place.

Shake it off has been turned into WAR's answer to Divine Veil (and a better one, at that), but since when can non-spellcasters erect magical barriers to shield their teammates?

I think it's fair to argue that it was SE which took the easy way out on SiO. Players just wanted it to be a useful ability. SE clearly made this ability overpowered for no particular reason.

If you wanted to make this sort of interaction more explicit, give Inner Release some defensive properties as well. It already prevents knockback. There's no reason why you couldn't pick up some damage resistance or bonus HP to shrug off damage while enraged.

IR can already be used to pick up damage resistance and bonus HP. Only thing that prevents this is ego.

As far as DRK is concerned, it seems that our identity seems to shift constantly. We've been parry tanks, magic tanks, and now barrier tanks. It seems like every time we try to specialise in something, another tank comes along and does it better.

PLD being allowed to block magic damage was a way bigger blow to DRK's identity than anything WAR ever did. And then to top it off, SE took the only remaining party mitigation DRK had and gave it to both the other tanks.

If you want to make DRK unique, there is one thing that we absolutely have to stake a claim in. This job has 27 years worth of series lore attached to it. We're meant to be this game's lifesteal tank.

I disagree with this on the basis that 2.0 WAR being a "lifesteal" tank didn't work. Damage mitigation scales with content, lifesteal does not. In my opinion DRK needs to re-emerge as the "magic" tank. WAR would be "physical", and PLD would be the best "support" tank for both.

----

Not really trying to pick on Lyth because I generally agree, but there was too much here to not comment on.

[Grimoire-M]

DRK does not need to be the lifesteal tank. That role should go to WAR, mostly to make up for their lack of mitigation on their tank stance. It fits a berserker archetype better regardless, which is what WAR is. Bloodbath originally belonged to them for a reason.

DRK's role should be focused more on debuffing their enemies as opposed to supporting their allies, at least in terms of utility. That is more in line with their gameplay across the series as a whole as well. Some of their mitigation can lean towards magic, sure, but that's part of their problem at the moment. Maybe the best idea is to simply accept that self mitigation is self mitigation, regardless of whatever damage type is being used. To that end, Dark Mind should either become universal with a longer cooldown on DRK only, or join the role action list for tanks. Either or works, but if the latter did happen I'd expect Reprisal to go back to DRK, or for DRK to get a stronger version of it as an exclusive ability.