A self-improvement tool is needed in this game, especially for end game

[Zephanoa]

To be honest I think the system is working as intended. It is up to the playerbase to communicate with one another on improving and as much as it should be it's up to the playerbase to help each other out. Now if Bob doesn't want unsolicited advice that is up to Bob, but he is going to have a hard time keeping up.

I think it comes down to, this isn't a dev problem other than rotations could be clearer but I think it is the way it is because they want people to interact. Instead of a tool, receive some mentoring. Instead of being frustrated, offer mentoring.

[Dzian]

I think it is the way it is because they want people to interact. .

The issue here is that in virtually every aspect of the game they pretty much don't want players to interact or at least on any meaningful level. The game is built more around groups of individuals all soloing the same thing rather than building teams and bonds and working together. This is in part why player interactivity is virtually non existent except the odd hey or wave at the start of an instance.

Players have wanted meaningful ways to interact and build bonds for years which is why people have been asking for fc content since early beta. Things players can work on as a team and not just a group of individuals with similar goals.

Even the msq pushes players away from interactivity. You cannot continue because your in a party. Virtually everything about the game is designed in a way that actually discourages interactivity. Right down to the button mash fest of combat where you don't even have a second to talk because too busy mashing buttons.

I think this is partly why so many groups fall apart and players leave. Because they never interact on any real level. Even static many aren't teams they're just groups of people with the same goal hence why they fall apart so often.

[Ilan]

To be honest I think the system is working as intended. It is up to the playerbase to communicate with one another on improving and as much as it should be it's up to the playerbase to help each other out. Now if Bob doesn't want unsolicited advice that is up to Bob, but he is going to have a hard time keeping up.

I think it comes down to, this isn't a dev problem other than rotations could be clearer but I think it is the way it is because they want people to interact. Instead of a tool, receive some mentoring. Instead of being frustrated, offer mentoring.

I don't know about that. Most of the playerbase doesn't want help from others, they even think its harassment if you try to help them. What we shouldn't forget is the fact that you have to find someone first who can help you and thats most of the time someone who works with an improvement tool aka. parser which leads us to the title of the thread: a tool is needed.

[LineageRazor]

People will be people. Always.

This is true - but the forums have a bad habit of overestimating how malicious "people" actually are.

Take vote kick, for instance. Back before it was added to the game, the forums were ablaze with folks predicting the doom and gloom that would occur when it was added. Duty Finder would be flooded with trolls, forming parties with each other specifically to take folks to the ends of dungeons and then kick them, just for lulz.

Nowadays, folks can barely imagine not having the kick feature. It's a useful tool for removing folks who've disconnected, or are harassing party members, or what have you. Is it sometimes abused? Of course it is. But Duty Finder has not collapsed under the weight of the trolling, like many were expecting.

Seriously, though, the game DOES need some way for players to measure their own performance, ideally in such a way where the game actually suggests ways they can improve. Even when players TRY to help other players, many times they're on such a higher level of play that the advice they give sounds like gobbledygook. Just using the term oGCD will get a player's eyes spinning if they have no idea what a global cooldown is, or what actions it applies to - to say nothing of concepts like ability queuing, animation lock, and so on and so forth. It doesn't help when folks use terms from other games that are never used in this one, such as "taunt". Many of these concepts are crucial to understand in difficult content, and the game does not do much to help learn them.

[Vahlnir]

This is true - but the forums have a bad habit of overestimating how malicious "people" actually are.

Seriously, though, the game DOES need some way for players to measure their own performance, ideally in such a way where the game actually suggests ways they can improve. .

Oh, my opinion on the matter has nothing to do with the forums, just for the record. Mine is based off of years of experience in other MMOs, mainly WoW. And I have nothing against parsers themselves. I think they're a great tool. But there's a lot of potential for abuse and it would certainly change how the game is played. Not necessarily for the better. I don't know that for a fact, but this is my opinion. But the game does indeed need a way to show people that there's room for improvement. I just don't think it should be in the form of a parser.

[Whanext]

To be honest I think the system is working as intended. It is up to the playerbase to communicate with one another on improving and as much as it should be it's up to the playerbase to help each other out. Now if Bob doesn't want unsolicited advice that is up to Bob, but he is going to have a hard time keeping up.

I think it comes down to, this isn't a dev problem other than rotations could be clearer but I think it is the way it is because they want people to interact. Instead of a tool, receive some mentoring. Instead of being frustrated, offer mentoring.

This sounds reasonable, but if you look at it again then it comes problems. Let's use Bob as an example.

Due to the prohibition of third party softwares, other players may have troubles to give advices to Bob. If Bob dies to mechanics, then it is easy to say something about that. If Bob does not die to mechanics but is under-performing, there is no way to tell this with limited information provided by the game itself. Even if other players try to give Bob advices, Bob can choose to listen or not. Since the game does not tell Bob that he did poorly, Bob has no reason to believe what other players said is true. In the mean time, more and more players will get discouraged on giving advice, since they gain no benefit and may get reported or get banned. There may be lots of players who seek to improve, but they have no way to get any information about their performance (for example ps4 players).

This process repeats as Bob can continue to join other parties in the pf for High End Duties without getting into any troubles, even though his skill is not ready yet.

As a mmorpg, the community definitely serves as an important role of improving players' skills, but devs do not support or even against such community.

Devs definitely know what kind of rotation exists in this game, as they even nerfed one of ninja's skills because some players found out a better rotation than what Devs know. So Devs should at least provide some tools in the game to help players better understand their roles.

[JunseiKei]

To be honest I think the system is working as intended. It is up to the playerbase to communicate with one another on improving and as much as it should be it's up to the playerbase to help each other out. Now if Bob doesn't want unsolicited advice that is up to Bob, but he is going to have a hard time keeping up.

I think it comes down to, this isn't a dev problem other than rotations could be clearer but I think it is the way it is because they want people to interact. Instead of a tool, receive some mentoring. Instead of being frustrated, offer mentoring.

I think part of the problem stems from there is no way to call a player out on poor performance other than obvious things. I don't mean in a demeaning way, either, or even being a jerk about it. A person with a bad opener and rotation won't really show without outside help, unless you're watching them and happen to know the class inside and out. However, yes, people really stink at taking criticism, while there are others that are unable to give constructive criticism, too.

[Lucke]

I've made the suggestion before, but what about an after action report type thing. I haven't done PVP in a long time, but after each match, a window would pop up with all kinds of data like dmg done, dmg healed, dmg reduced by cooldowns, stuff like that. That may work. If I'm a DPS and dead last for damage done, then I know I have to up my game. Make the data sort-able too to make it easy to read. Of course, this only matters if I choose to improve myself, nothing is forcing me to ignore all the data points to keep sucking. /shrug. Quite the pickle.

[Kewitt]

There are dummy that train people, most people don't know that they exsit.

Maybe make getting X progress on the dummy apart of savage quest unlocking.

[Shurrikhan]

This might be a bit off topic but did they ever give a reason why you can't discuss parsing in PF?

Someone expecting you to carry them while they underperform may feel slighted when you imply you haven't the incentive or time to meet the needs of people who refuse to meet the requirements set for them by kicking them and attempt to have the party or party leader banned for breaking TOA by using a third-party tool. So, when people check the accuracy of their assessments before kicking people, rather than booting people on suspicion, they make sure to keep their data hidden.