Jobs: unconnected and now feeling flat

[Reynhart]

Anytime someone suggest anything regarding customization, people react that it wouldn't be beneficial because theorycrafters will mathematically determine what's the best and end-game parties will reject anyone who's even 1% behind.

Do these people realize that there's no easier mathematical theorycraft than itemization, that we already have it in the game, and the end-game community didn't break apart because of that ? Especially considering "being the best" requires much more tiresome tasks that leveling another job...
Or even than end-game is a very little part of the community and that the customization could make some jobs more interesting if you could slightly tailor it to your liking ?

[Emstidor]

Does the itemization example really help your case though, considering it's intentionally limited to two, maaaaybe three pieces per slot per raid cycle maximum? OP's suggestion for cross-classable traits reminds me of one of the oft-repeated requests for "unique/skill-modifying stats on gear", and despite making regular appearances on the forums since ARR's release, notice that feature hasn't been implemented either, again likely because it'd be too difficult to balance properly.

I want to be clear, I'm not against the idea by any means, nor the one in my post, I just question the feasibility of their being added to the game.

[Reynhart]

OP's suggestion for cross-classable traits reminds me of one of the oft-repeated requests for "unique/skill-modifying stats on gear", and despite making regular appearances on the forums since ARR's release, notice that feature hasn't been implemented either, again likely because it'd be too difficult to balance properly.

My guess is that this feature would obviously take significant ressources to develop, and since the forum has widely spread the idea that it would be "useless" because "only perfect matters", they have the most convenient excuse to not bother doing it.
Or...the dev team is really convinced that the risk of exclusion is a real one...and naive enough to not understand that, again, item level is the easiest and most blatant criteria of exclusion.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

Well...


With the possibility of a job going into endgame content lacking a necessary skill, such as provoke for tank swaps, that we had before...
I think the role skills are an improvement.


This means, that players will have the necessary abilities that their job should have.
It also allows the devs to know for absolute certainty that any job will have the skills they think they should have.


Doing tank swaps without provoke just sounds like a nightmare.

[Malkria]

I don't really feel as if we need an extended timer for the fire and ice spell regarding black mage. They're already set at 13 seconds each which is more than enough time to get a general idea for the rotation. And honestly speaking, thm/blm at lower levels is already pretty boring in terms of skill and fairly easy to understand. The only things that I've ever had to remind newbies of is that Thunder II works as a multi-target dot since that wasn't always the case beforehand. The class is fairly easy to learn already with a simple, if not strict, rotation to follow that you can't really deviate from.

The mobility issues, and there are some, however, are not the main cause for concern regarding black mage all of the time. It's the fact that a good BLM player has to put in 200% more effort in order to effectively get anywhere while a SMN can do a lot less and get a lot more out of the deal. An extended timer wouldn't ease anyone in playing BLM better because it's not the rotation that's hard to learn or handle, it's the idea that a good black mage needs to map out an entire fight ahead of time and plan accordingly. A good blm will know the mechanics intuitively like the back of their hand and treat most fights as second nature, knowing when to put Leylines down and where, when to hold back for phase transitions, and when to move and how to keep movement as minimal as possible, etc. Now, that could be said for any and all classes, however, it's more connected with black mage because when we move, it's a DPS loss no matter what. Some things like Behind the Lines, Transpose, Triplecast, and Aetherial do help, but, it's still not a perfect set-up and probably never will be.

Whenever I talk with or ask other people why they dislike or find playing black mage harder than other jobs, it's not because the timer isn't long enough or mobility, it's because they have to put in double the effort for a reward (high damage) when they can play something like Summoner and put in less, while still getting more. Hell, they've told me that they rather play Monk because the return is better.

Here is the thing, remember how I was talking about players that would take traits that would more suit their play style? This is case in point. Yes you might not have an issue with the mobility of the BLM, but I certainly am. I just did the ghost barque dungeon and even with having all my shire gear with as much spell speed I could squeeze in at around 900+ I still had trouble getting between mechanics to get off spells. Supposedly at 2222 spell speed the casts are so much faster, but that requries you have crafting at a level that can socket new slots, and I haven't gotten that far yet.

But your whole comment is case in point for what I was saying with the hypothetical situations above. Players are more likely to take the things that benefit THEIR play style over the meta. You obviously know the ins and outs of the black mage, and know the fights I assume to do what you are talking about; but I simply don't and am not worried about being top damage more then I am simply mastering the single and aoe target rotations as well as the play style of the black mage in general. So for me, increasing mobility and the timers would be more important then say having something that augmented the damage or way the black mage does damage, such as a trait that makes spells free for a certain time. For you, who has apparent higher mastery of the job, you probably would gain more by taking a different trait. THIS is the type of thing I have been trying to say, and your post is case in point of it.

I want to be clear, I'm not against the idea by any means, nor the one in my post, I just question the feasibility of their being added to the game.

Part of that might be that last I heard the game is bigger in Japan still then in other parts of the world. But that could just be me being a cynic again. Also it might also depend on how the traits are done. For example the original idea was traits given at 50, 60, and 70...which even creating 45 traits might be a tall order let along making them all interesting. 15 might be enough if you could only slot 2-3 still, and again as long as all were good in their own way and worth having on more then one or two jobs. the other issue is getting support from the community on it. Which...responses have been very mixed on this thread.

[Sigma-Astra]

Here is the thing, remember how I was talking about players that would take traits that would more suit their play style? This is case in point. Yes you might not have an issue with the mobility of the BLM, but I certainly am. I just did the ghost barque dungeon and even with having all my shire gear with as much spell speed I could squeeze in at around 900+ I still had trouble getting between mechanics to get off spells. Supposedly at 2222 spell speed the casts are so much faster, but that requries you have crafting at a level that can socket new slots, and I haven't gotten that far yet.

I wasn't perfect at the Sirensong Dungeon upon first release either, it's okay, no one is. It just takes practice, but you also have to be willing to put in the work as well and not rely on shortcuts or "training wheels" as you called them, to get there. Black Mage is all about timing and placement of oneself, that's the end result of it. You need to be able to know how mechanics work and to be able to react quickly to minimize the DPS loss of moving. But again, that's with any particular job. Maining or learning an alt job requires you to know your job intuitively because aside from having fun with it as should always be the case when you play a job, you shouldn't be just putting in the bare minimum effort and expecting other people to carry your weight along in a dungeon. I was just in my Augmented Shire gear as well with an anima relic around the launch of SB, however, you don't necessarily need your crafting at a level that can overmeld. I don't overmeld, too expensive for my tastes, but I did at least meld V's (spellspeed & crit) to my gear back in Heavensward using the standard materia melders and paying the flat fees. You don't need your own crafters to meld your gear anymore. If you're having trouble getting spells off between mechanics, that just means that you need more practice on a training dummy, not a special trait that extends the timers for you. There's nothing wrong with practicing your job more so that you can better understand it.

But your whole comment is case in point for what I was saying with the hypothetical situations above. Players are more likely to take the things that benefit THEIR play style over the meta. You obviously know the ins and outs of the black mage, and know the fights I assume to do what you are talking about; but I simply don't and am not worried about being top damage more then I am simply mastering the single and aoe target rotations as well as the play style of the black mage in general. So for me, increasing mobility and the timers would be more important then say having something that augmented the damage or way the black mage does damage, such as a trait that makes spells free for a certain time. For you, who has apparent higher mastery of the job, you probably would gain more by taking a different trait. THIS is the type of thing I have been trying to say, and your post is case in point of it.

If you're playing Black Mage, you should be worried about doing enough damage as that's the whole point of the DPS class: to do large bursts of single target damage with secondary bursts in AoE damage. That's not a meta, that's just how the class is and what it's for. I'm by no means, a master of the class since I still make dumb mistakes, we all do, and it's not the end of the world if we do. If you're really concerned about mastering the single and aoe rotations, then you need to practice and maybe look at a few guides or ask tips from other players. An extended timer or trait that allows free spells isn't going to help you get better naturally because you'll start to rely on them like a crutch. And they've already extended the timer since SB, it used to be a looooooot shorter in HW. The only reason that I know as much as I do is because I sincerely love the class, I've been maining it for 5 years and I've practiced, learned parts of fights that allow me to skirt by for that extra damage, etc....all of that little stuff. If you're having problems with the job and it's rotations, maybe I can help you out?

If people rely too much on specialized traits to help them get better at a job, then they'll keep going for the path of least resistance all of the time when something gets too hard. I think bard and dragoon are balls harder compared to BLM. BRD for the large amounts of abilities and procs that need to be watched out for and DRG for the positionals and different rotation combos (which can also get screwed up by moving), but, I just keep trying to practice on training dummies. I honestly don't think that we have the type of game that...necessarily needs these types of things, mostly because at the end of the day people have the tendency and will figure out which traits would be better for endgame.

We have a nightmare with balancing jobs already, not sure if we need the nightmare of balancing specialized stats or builds too.

[Malkria]

It just takes practice, but you also have to be willing to put in the work as well and not rely on shortcuts or "training wheels" as you called them, to get there. Black Mage is all about timing and placement of oneself, that's the end result of it. You need to be able to know how mechanics work and to be able to react quickly to minimize the DPS loss of moving.

If people rely too much on specialized traits to help them get better at a job, then they'll keep going for the path of least resistance all of the time when something gets too hard.

While I did read through your post, I wanted to condense it down to the part I felt most needed to be responded to (though I'm not against any advice).

To best understand what I mean about 'training wheels' is basically explaining something similar in, of all places, Dark Souls; specifically what occurred in the original version (and some extent the remaster) and the "Ring of Life Protection". Now rings in general act quite similar to what I am saying the trait system should be. Basically you level and augment your main character stats, equip gear/spells, and you then have a basic build. Quite similar to how jobs are in basic comparison. The rings however let you augment everything from casting speed, to equipment load (for more defense or bigger and harder hitting weapons), to even doing more counter or critical damage. All in all not a perfect comparison but you can still see the comparison. In Dark Souls 2 (and later 3) you are given four of these ring slots, and that is where the "Ring of Life Protection" (ROLP) came in.

One of the core mechanics of Dark souls is that your XP and money were both the same thing; souls. Which every time you die you drop it all and have to get back to said souls without dying again or it's gone for good, and as you level up you need more and more which makes dying and losing these souls more and more of a bad thing. ROLP in the first version of Dark Souls 2 basically put the training wheels on, the ring broke when you died but cost a paltry amount to fix and made it that when you die you kept all your souls on you when you respawn. Basically, it removed the threat of death in a game all about said threat.

So why go into all of that? Because these 'training wheels' came with a very heavy price, they took up a ring slot. Which means you would always be 25% weaker then someone who played the game properly, and you would know it. Sure it made leveling up easier, but it also came back to bite you if you got invaded and had to fight off another player. Translated to this game, that would mean that you would always be weaker then someone else who mastered the job mechanic and fights as you say. On the flip side, it also makes the class more forgiving in learning how to master said job mechanics and learn the fights. Especially if you haven't leveled all your crafting to unlock the extra materia slots for spell speed which as I understand it is how you can really push ahead of the pack as a black mage.

Your argument is the same as the whole "should healers do DPS" debate that has raged since the start as I understand it. Having the option to make a job easier by either augmenting the mechanics of said job or focusing on healing at cost to DPS is the same thing. Yes you idealing want to have both do as much DPS as possible, but mastering the job and role for both takes time. Which as long as someone knows they aren't doing as best they can and pushes to improve doesn't hurt anything. There is a reason the term 'training wheels' exists in the first place, most people can't just jump on a bike and ride it. Most people will also eventually want to get them off as well since you can't really manuaver as well with them on, and getting them off makes bike riding that much more fun.

So my point is players want to be powerful, and they also are smart enough to know that if such an augment was available that there would be a time they need to get rid of said augment to make themselves more powerful. There also might be other times where such an augment might be worth the cost in power, such as learning a new dungeon or raid's mechanics. In a way I can point to the AST as being proof of this, as I switch sects constantly as I master a dungeon so that I use HoT or shields as best suited for the situation. It's one of the best features of the AST, and frankly I feel an under appreciated function of the job that I don't see many if any other AST do. But being able to tailor your character to the task at hand is the same concept as a trait system, and while I start most new content sticking to the HoT stance and play like a WHM I know that to maximize my potential as a healer that switching to suit the situation makes MP and team HP management easier which allows for more DPS on my part.

[Sigma-Astra]

While I can understand the Dark Souls references and see exactly where you're going, I still can't fully commit to the idea that it would be a good thing or implemented correctly that wouldn't start to ostracize certain players that don't follow the "correct" or "meta" build by other people in the community. In a single player game such as Dark Souls, you're playing solely and going against other players to benefit and better yourself, but in an MMO, it's a little bit of that plus benefiting the other players around you because most of the content minus the main story quests all require group cooperation and coordination. Even if there was a trait that allowed a black mage to get free casts or extend the time, if you're not doing the core function of your job, which is dealing adequate levels of damage, people are going to use those training wheel traits against you through vote kick and grieve tactics. And let's be fair, it doesn't take much for some people in this game to find some absurd reason to kick you whether it be not getting through the dungeon fast enough or dying too much.

You're basically putting on these traits with high hopes that everyone else around you will "accept" that you're not comfortable with the class and that they won't belittle you for it where...that's not really an issue in Dark Souls because it's every person for themselves essentially. We don't really have that in XIV besides PvP and I think specialized traits will mostly stay within the walls of PvP and never really leak out to PvE.

That's just my take on the matter really. If you have any questions about black mage, feel free to ask them whenever you need to. I don't consider myself to be a master or the best, just knowledgeable somewhat about the job.

[Reynhart]

While I can understand the Dark Souls references and see exactly where you're going, I still can't fully commit to the idea that it would be a good thing or implemented correctly that wouldn't start to ostracize certain players that don't follow the "correct" or "meta" build by other people in the community.

You have basically three ways of doing content.

• PUG via Duty Finder
• Static parties with friends
• Premade with strangers via the Party Finder

Basically, the only situation where you would be ostracized for "incorrect" build would be the last one, and even then, only for the really challenging content, and only with really nitpicky people, as long as your build is not significantly lower that the "correct" one. Which still leaves 90% of the game at your disposal.
And the job system would also allow you to "save" one job for competition, where you would follow the "meta", while customizing all your other job at your own will for fun. Exactly like, right now, you could meld every slot with skillspeed just because you love the faster GCD on one job, and meld BiS for another.

[RethDaron]

The game is balanced into restricted mediocrity. I don't see it changing anytime soon.