Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Vstarstruck]

The retainers you pay for should just be there for inventory space, no MB listings, no ventures. Locking ventures and extra MB slots is making MB management pay to win and unfair to those that pay on base SUB. This also means removal of the proposed IRL currency for the new app, not allowing those to spam undercutting just because they are rich.

In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Some critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" or "p2w" games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[34] For example, games—such as Dota 2, League of Legends, and Maplestory—only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a "free-to-play player" will be on the same level as a player who has spent money on the game.

a sub model shouldn't have any pay to win aspects to it, and even arguable that f2p shouldn't have p2w aspects in it, so why is this sub model game having ptw in it?

Depends on how you define P2W. It used to be that anything that let you pay real money to circumvent a gameplay limitation was considered P2W. But because it's SE, people are now trying to change it to mean something else.

Just thought I edit this in because people want to change what P2W means. In this case, having 180 (after app 200) sell slots per character, making it 1600 per server/ account (so duo box will have 3200 etc.) while base sub is 320 per 8 chrs, or 40 per chr. This glaringly fits the meaning of P2W, what is literally defined as "winning" is not the point of this thread, and I do not know how that is missed by many. I do not want to pay 30 EUR or whatever it ends up being (my understanding 36 USD) plus micro transactions just to keep up sales. 36 USD+ micro transactions means that one person can rule the pricing on a lot of key items because of this P2W situation now.

DO NOT SELL POWER! at ANY kind of level, sell an advantage that impacts balance in some way. For people auguring making muti accounts and chrs is the same thing, not it is not and this app should make it glaring so why.. TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is worth noting how much longer it takes to change chrs or accounts then to manage everything from one character. (Fyi FFXIV will not run more then 2 accounts on one computer though normal means) While you are trying to change, your taking time away that you could of spent crafting. (or a missed price change)

At some point, you can't manage that many accounts without having some kind of bot. this app puts a lot of power in a single account, more so then a duo boxer due to the streamline it gives, and being a duo boxer with this app just makes it exponentially worse. This app makes it too easy to price adjust, as you do other things, and costing a IRL money fee only harms it more. You really can't make an app to price change your in game items, when the economy is based on spam undercutting.

at the end of the day this app enables one person to control the MB, the only question is, is there that someone that plays this game. There are plenty of people that spend thousands of month on mobile games, to me controlling a game economy is a more enticing challenge.

[akaneakki]

Pay to win? How is it exactly pay to win, what does your character do better in combat or anywhere else to make your character stronger? You have time to explain.

[Vstarstruck]

Pay to win? How is it exactly pay to win, what does your character do better in combat or anywhere else to make your character stronger? You have time to explain.

How is it pay to win?

What is the prize? What are you winning from the retainer?

What pvp advantage does the retainer give to make it pay to win?

Is this retainer giving out EX mounts?

wiki define:

In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Some critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" or "p2w" games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[34] For example, games—such as Dota 2, League of Legends, and Maplestory—only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a "free-to-play player" will be on the same level as a player who has spent money on the game.

Substitute paying base sub and you get:

In FFXIV players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for the base sub Some critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" or "p2w" games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[34] For example, games—such as Dota 2, League of Legends, and Maplestory—only allow the purchase of cosmetic items, meaning that a "base sub player" will be on the same level as a player who has spent money on the game.

Using real money for extra sell slots, and real money to price change while not at the game are pay to win advantages. This is what people mean by a slippery slope. (accepting the idea of paid retainers to begin with) Now you have this app making the MB pay to win by changing prices. In case you did not know, you need to spam undercut, people buy the top item more often then not. Combat is one aspect of this game, and ptw is not limited to combat.

How little or much something impacts one ability to advance does not define if something is pay to win or not. (i/e gil does not do much on this game gil is worthless etc) The fact here, managing the MB is pay to win in ffxiv, more so when this app releases. Not only do you get to sell more items, but you can list more clones. The clone thing is important because when someone undercuts you, you can undercut someone on one retainer while keeping your listing because of the second. This is a huge advantage as you can get a sale still while changing your price on the cloned item from the different retainer. (Also if price changing one item does not take down your other listings on that retainer like it does while logged into the game, this is even a stronger argument on how this app makes retainer sale listings pay to win)

[Derio]

How is it pay to win?

What is the prize? What are you winning from the retainer?

What pvp advantage does the retainer give to make it pay to win?

Is this retainer giving out EX mounts?

[LeoLupinos]

Pay to win? How is it exactly pay to win, what does your character do better in combat or anywhere else to make your character stronger? You have time to explain.

How is it pay to win?

What is the prize? What are you winning from the retainer?

What pvp advantage does the retainer give to make it pay to win?

Is this retainer giving out EX mounts?

Do you both already played Fair games that become Pay to win over the time? They started with simple moves like these ones from SE. Anything more than cosmetic/glamour is somewhat pay to win. Retainers can control economy, so you pay to win at economy. You can have a lot of retainers, so a lot of ventures, a lot of gill and mats, so pay to win more. As you can see, only with these examples, it's not only cosmetic, while there's much more examples.

[Derio]

Do you both already played Fair games that become Pay to win over the time? They started with simple moves like these ones from SE. Anything more than cosmetic/glamour is somewhat pay to win. Retainers can control economy, so you pay to win at economy. You can have a lot of retainers, so a lot of ventures, a lot of gill and mats, so pay to win more. As you can see, only with these examples, it's not only cosmetic, while there's much more examples.

By that example. FFXIV went P2W a long time ago. If someone has 9 retainers compared to someone who has only 2. App or no App, if that person has no life and can stay on ffxiv all day, then they win

[KisaiTenshi]

Do you both already played Fair games that become Pay to win over the time? They started with simple moves like these ones from SE. Anything more than cosmetic/glamour is somewhat pay to win. Retainers can control economy, so you pay to win at economy. You can have a lot of retainers, so a lot of ventures, a lot of gill and mats, so pay to win more. As you can see, only with these examples, it's not only cosmetic, while there's much more examples.

The reason cosmetic stuff isn't "P2W" is because they can't affect the game, but in some games (*cough*mabinogi*cough) they in fact do as a way to drive sales of those "cosmetic" items. I could list off every Nexon P2W trick but it would be probably be a few pages.

An item is only cosmetic if the item can specifically be purchased as-you-want-it. Which means that if "Cute Dress with Hat" is in the shop, and I want it for some reason, I can buy it, and it will only piss off the people who collect things. If it's hidden behind Gachapon/Lootboxes, then it's straight up gambling and are Skinner boxes.

Here's where SE has screwed this up.

- There are 21 minions in the cash shop, they can be used in Lord of Verminion, and "collecting them all" is something people do. 21*5=$105
- There are 10 mounts in the cash shop, collecting them all is something people do. 4*12 (per character), 5*24 (account wide), 29.99= $197.99
- There are 8 Orchestrion Rolls in the cash shop, if you are collecting them all, well you're out of luck. 8*3=$24.

So by putting these in the cash shop, you're already squeezing at least $300 out of players who must have everything to complete their collection/achievements, especially those who missed the opportunity to get them from an event.

- There are 16 emotes in the cash shop that you can't get in the game any other way. It may not be P2W, but it's still a kick in the face.

- There are 54 character outfits. Since there is no progress attached to these, these, yes are optional and do not affect the game. However, certain outfits should have been in the game, like the Blackbosom attire (eg PotD) , and the Scions outfits (for 2.0/3.0 content.) Is it annoying they aren't? Yes a little, but it's not something to lose sleep over.

- 72 Unisex seasonal items plus 24 womens/mens gender-locked items. Miss out on an event? So sorry, you can buy it.

- There are 40 dyes in the shop, you can not make them in game, where is the logic in that? They are split between single dyes and stacks of 10. So really 20 colors that you can't normally use in the game. I was considering buying these before when I couldn't find a color that fit an outfit, but then decided to just use another outfit I could dye normally.

Then finally we have the Level boosts and Scenario skips
- Boost your retainer, this is sheer P2W. $9/ea or $40.50 for a stack of 5. Absolutely P2W
- Boost a job, 13 x $25/ea, also note they come with 30 Platinum Allagan pieces so 300,000 gil. Absolutely P2W.


The retainers are a "rental" system, so you are paying more per month just to have them.
A maximum of 7 retainers can be hired per service account, $2.00 for 30 days/each.
So someone can optionally pay $14/mo to be an enormous packrack or crafter. So just like screwing people with low compulsion control with lootboxes, this is screwing with people with OCD that have anxiety about throwing things away.

Really they should have broken the retainer system in half, by making it a one-time charge for each additional retainer, but maxing out the number of retainers that can be selling at once to one with a longer list. Or redesign that so that there is a separate single "store" that all the retainers are a part of, and instead "rent" additional slots in the store to conserve resources and keep RMT from being able to monopolize a market on a server. I'm not even sure why they assign retainers to separate areas, when you can buy from all of them regardless of where the marketboard is. Perhaps that's still a hold over from V1.0.

[Callinon]

The retainers are a "rental" system, so you are paying more per month just to have them.
A maximum of 7 retainers can be hired per service account, $2.00 for 30 days/each.
So someone can optionally pay $14/mo to be an enormous packrack or crafter. So just like screwing people with low compulsion control with lootboxes, this is screwing with people with OCD that have anxiety about throwing things away.

I'd like to point out here that not even free-to-play games make you SUBSCRIBE to bank space. You buy your bank space or your AH slots and you're golden. You never have to pay for them again. Subscription Game FFXIV? Keep paying.

[LeoLupinos]

FFXIV has already gone beyond the "only cosmetic" cash shop.
I think we can't revert at this point.

[AlexanderThorolund]

Just stop. Seriously.

It isn’t pay to win, you know it isn’t and creating threads like this fans the flames and plants seeds in people’s consciousness that this is pay to win, which I repeat, it is not.

By creating threads like this you’re just trolling basically. Sorry but I’m just calling it as it is. I can’t help it and I know the majority of people will feel the same.