The Unofficial "Why is this still a thing" Thread

[KisaiTenshi]

While I am under the opinion that all healers should have their own versions of the basic 'required skills' such as Protect and Esuna, this is a bad idea. It's already bad enough when I use AST and I cannot be sure if my co-AST or co-SCH will cooperate with me to not overwrite whatever buffs I have up. Adding Stoneskin II into that mix with WHM will just make this needlessly complicated. Also...while we have our own shields, yes, it's not a long-lasting defensive mitigation. Honestly, I'd prefer if all three jobs had their own protect version, and they each brought something different to the table instead. Not sure how you justify removing protect from AST/SCH because 'they have their own'. It's not the same thing.

I worded it that way because we're all so fond of nitpickery. I actually hate the entire "overwrites" thing on AST and SCH, but without it, you get two shields, and that ends up bringing the "lazy healer, with nothing to do" issue back into focus. I'd like to see SE find a way to make the regen and shield effects "stack" but only cut their potency in half when stacked rather than over-write them, but I suspect the real reason they made the shields overwrite was to reduce the buff clutter on screen.

Still, the point I was trying to make was that by removing Protect and Esuna from the WHM kit, they can't make content designed around those skills existing because players may not have them. They need to give protect back to WHM-only, and have AST and SCH have their own flavor that can stack with it. So that logically requires giving WHM back stoneskin in some way so that content can be designed for party shields, otherwise the AST and SCH have "Bonus shields" that just contribute more to the "lazy healer" problem.

Like it would make more sense in the long run to just give up on making the healers "unique" in any aspect that would tilt the healing balance. Like you can see the thought that went into AST originally, and how it backfired (like really, a slight nerf to the healing potency, but has to be made up with RNG-based buffs?) The healer needs 6 skills, everything the healer does should be connected to either keeping the shield up, keeping HoT up, or casting party/spot heals, while doing no overhealing:
Spot Heal
Party Heal
Spot Shield
Party Shield
Spot HoT
Party HoT

With any shields at all, with WHM means the Lilies and confession stacks for Plenary Indulgence aren't available, as those are only given for healing, not overhealing. AST brings RNG buffs, so you may as well assume they won't use them, and the SCH brings a fairy that has buffs that they may forget to use, or use at the wrong time, or may not even use the fairy that benefits the most. The WHM brings no buffs presently that you can't get with AST, and even SCH has access to protect.

[Dualgunner]

Not really. Monk is at the top of the DPS charts, so its low utility is understandable. Ninja does have very low dps, but very good utility. Trick Attack is definitely better than Litany or Sight, primarily because it can be used twice between Sights and 3 times between Litany. They also have other prized utility. There's a reason so many people want ninjas. Dragoon losing it's piercing debuff would mean it either needs higher dps, or a different utility to replace it.

Shouldn't Dragoon, which vastly out pDPSes Ninja, lose disembowel solely for the reasons you stated, or take some massive damage nerfs? Nin has TA which can be anywhere between 300 and 400 rdps; drg gets ~250 rdps per ranged on top of all its sight and crit buffs.

[GunksFoy]

Shouldn't Dragoon, which vastly out pDPSes Ninja, lose disembowel solely for the reasons you stated, or take some massive damage nerfs? Nin has TA which can be anywhere between 300 and 400 rdps; drg gets ~250 rdps per ranged on top of all its sight and crit buffs.

Not really for me to decide. But the difference is that Ninja gets this utility no matter the group comp. Dragoon requires a specific group composition. Ninja slots well into any comp, and gains higher increases the more DPS the rest of the group does. Ninja also has shadewalker and smokescreen. That doesn't take into account their slashing debuff that is guaranteed to buff at least 3 party members, potentially 4 or more (though duplicate classes are not ideal, so 4 is the max I would consider.) So overall, I would say: no, dragoon does not need "massive nerfs".

[Reynhart]

Piercing gives nothing to the raid. It gives 5% damage boost to two jobs in particular.

It doesn't matter how it's done, it's still raid utility.

In the meta, with both BRD and MCH, DRG's rDPS outdoes NIN's rDPS, all while DRG still outdoes NIN in pDPS.

Then the problem is not about piercing debuff, but about the native DPS of DRG vs other melee ones. If you have more utility, you shouldn't do more damage by yourself.
For example, if BRD or MCH had the piercing debuff, you'd still take a DRG over a NIN on personal DPS alone and end with the same meta.

[Aomine1992]

For a game that lives and dies by team play content, team effort and dps, why was selfish dps ever a thing you are just begging for exclusion

Also agreed I think piercing should be abolished no class should be that gimped by not have another, SE just needs to do better with balancing period just look at healing....

[Remedi]

I'd rather have ppl stop overblowing imbalances in the game especially when most of the playerbase don't even play meta jobs correctly as the balance discord have discovered in their tanks analysis

[KaivaC]

snip

Not all healers who solely heal can be called lazy. Vise versa, some healers who only dps with partial heals can be called lazy. True lazy healers will be lazy, no matter what kind of kit you give them. The way the game engine is set up right now, double shields would almost be useless if you cut their potency in half. It wouldn't be much different from the set up that we have now. Bringing back stoneskin would require a rework of the skill.

There are very few fights outside of the savage ones that challenge the potency of healing. Vise versa, addressing party shields would require lowering healing potency to avoid making healers even more powerful than they already are. The fact that every fight allows significant dps uptime for healers because of their strong healing capabilities is part of the issue.

[Shurrikhan]

Protect. It just takes up cross role space. I'm certain they could have done some math and edited damage taken so protect would no longer be necessary.

It punishes death in battle.

There's a point at which that punishment is sufficient.

Are you implying that the uptime loss of death itself, exhaustion of resources, hefty mana cost and uptime or ability cost of the resurrection itself, and the 90 seconds of 25% throughput loss after resurrection are insufficient to punish death, and that the one additional GCD spent for a faint mitigation increase makes it sufficient?

If so, I'd have to disagree.

If not, then I'm not sure what's even being put forward for discussion / what point is actually being made.

[SannaR]

Blue cheese only being sold at one npc and the fish recipe for the summer event's fish only available during said event while the other event items can be made all year around. Along with not being able to buy accessories from npcs in HW between ilv 115 and the level 60 ones. why are these still like that? I only really care about the accessories when my retainer is in that level range since we can get HQ ones from quests or dungeon drops. There also are some belts in ARR you can only get from quests. I didn't know that was a thing until recently. Also why are some of the starting cities lower level side quests not available to those who didn't start in them? They're side quests that aren't dealing with the msq but if you didn't start in that city you can't do them.

[HyoMinPark]

Personally, the only way I see giving Bard and Machinist their own piercing debuff is if it's a dps loss for them to use it. Much like Ninja used to be. For example, Their dps goes up by 150 to use it when no dragoon is in the party, but if there is a Dragoon, they can drop it and gain an additional 100 dps(numbers are hypothetical). This way they get part of the benefit, but still have synergy with Dragoon and help maintain Dragoon's viability.

EDIT: I don't know enough about Bard's rotation to know exactly how to implement it this way. Maybe it's a 15s buff that replaces a Heavy Shot.

There’s no reason for this type of implementation, especially since Stormblood removed Dancing Edge entirely and placed a NIN’s slashing debuff on their Shadow Fang DoT, which they will always keep up and do not lose DPS by doing Shadow Fang over Aeolian Edge the same way they did doing Dancing Edge over Aeolian. Why gimp the BRD’s or the MCH’s damage when they apply their own resistance down when no other job loses anything by applying their own? All resistance downs are a normal part of each job’s rotation.

If it were ever implemented, I imagine that they would just tack it on to Straight Shot/Hot Shot for BRD/MCH respectively. Since both are a core part of each job’s rotation, and a buff they should never let drop. Just like the other resistance downs. I disagree with punishing jobs just because they’re applying a buff core to their damage output.