Savage content needs to be fixed.

[Shaolinz]

Thank you for your time.

[HyoMinPark]

Thank you for your time.

I’m all for agreeing to disagree, but you’re basically writing off discussion with anyone who doesn’t see things the way you see them. This is a discussion forum; when you post something on here, expect discussion. You can’t just write people off because they disagree with you. And you’re doing just that with my refusal to create an unnecessary social experiment—which isn’t needed to prove PF works when you have multiple people telling you that it already does.

We are on the same data center. I have played this game for 2.5 years, and been pugging high-end content for over a year. I’ve never had any problems getting groups for things unless I am attempting to do so in early morning hours (3am ~ 7am), and even then they eventually fill. (And this was BEFORE cross-world Party Finder, when PF was just server-only.) I just read a book while I wait. It sounds like you’re either joining the wrong kind of groups (e.g., you’re on enrage, but you’re joining learning groups with zero experience; or vise-versa), or you’re joining at odd hours and they take longer to fill (e.g., 2am CST on weekdays).

That said, not every group will clear; some will get a bit further each time; some will reach enrage but won’t be able to ensure a clear; and some will clear right at the very last moment, and just barely so. And that’s just how it goes. The same thing happens in statics as well. You keep trying instead of asking for some change to make it easier. Which, as Vidu pointed out earlier in the thread, once you give away your extra chest bonus, you won’t have that to fall back on anymore when you decide to farm the content. So you will be right back where you started—waiting for a group to fill (farm groups/weekly clear groups generally want Duty Complete).

[KaivaC]

Thank you for your time.

If you're using the Duty Finder/Raid Finder for doing Savage raids, then yeah, of course it's gonna take a long time and of course you'll have a high chance of not clearing. That's the problem. This isn't the JP side of things. If you want to clear current Savage content, NA primarily goes through the PF. You will find parties far more easier that way, and hell, you can make your own parties if you want. Just going off what has been said so far, it looks like you rarely use the Party Finder.

[Vidu]

Truthfully, my post was really to just bring attention to the fact that this content is presently elitist, not hard. And I'd like to think that is not intentional. I'm glad folks are at least discussing this. Thanks for your time.

The problem it is not "elitist" - I'm sorry you had such a bad experience but I cant stop shaking my head over your story there... you failed the very first mechanic of that encounter. I cant really be mad at the people, who wanted to clear this, removing you under the assumption that you sneaked into that group without knowing anything about the fight at all. Please note that I'm not saying that you did that - I've read the prep-part of your post, while ignoring the totally irrelevant facts about your life again - I'm just saying that it can easly look that way.

The "hard part" about doing savage comes from two things:
1) The difficulty of fights - this may vary between encounters and some might wish for them to be harder or easier, but at the end of the day those fights are more complexe, less forgiving and tighter on dps-checks than the rest of the game.
2) Finding 7 skilled people to do this content with - best case scenario: a static.
The second part is obviously very much intentional, because it allows the to create a more difficult fight in the first place.
This game has a high number of content that you can do on your own, using DF - and then there is this tiny but of content that requires you to network instead of putting yourself at the mercy of strangers every week. That doesnt has to mean to form a static - LS with like minded people work like a charm aswell - I have created one when Titan EX was a thing and whenever we can, we make sure to help out each other with any content. But you have to put your mind to this - the difficulty of Savage begins at finding people that you can actually clear this content with, that much is true. But since its that very thing that allows for Savage to be difficult content in the first place, I'd say its very much intentional.

PFs asking for "no first timers" arent elitist or toxic - they're trying to ensure that they'll find those like minded people.
But I also see "practise" and "clear" parties, not requiring this - if you try to join the parties of those who want to get their quick, weekly clear in when you're not at that level yet, it sounds a bit like you're asking for a carry to me (please no lecture about your job here).

The community asked for the "new person"-message so we could ensure that everyone in the "farm"-group (or quick clear group) we formed, knows the fight.
You know the one harm that clear-sellers are actually doing, even though its a minor one? They're removing this message for people who dont know the fight.
I know you dont have any real ill intentions, but you're proposing a very strong incentive to carry a new person through this content.
The incentive for the new person needs to be carefully balanced - extra loot like that is way to strong.

I'm sorry but to me this sounds as if you've been trying to mainly join parties for weekly clears or rather parties with a majority of people who have cleared this content already, instead of joining those that are closer to your situation, aka people who havent cleared this yet.
Network.
Create a LS.
Make your own PF.
Dont make it easier for people to get carried.

[Lord_Zlatan]

Don't assume every player is selfish enough to not ever help anyone unless they can get loot. Some of us are kind enough to help because the player is a friend, and some enjoy combat enough to do the fight for the joy of it. I know people who do savage on free nights to learn how to play other classes better. Plenty of players do more savage content than they need to for reasons outside of personal loot.

I am one such person willing to help, absolutely. But... on the other hand, if these means literally hours of peoples time in some instances, why not sweeten the deal a bit?

[Lord_Zlatan]

You need an incentive to help a friend/FC mate? I mean, I won't spend too much time helping complete strangers (though I have), but I don't need incentives to help friends or FC mates.

No. Not usually. Would I mind doing it just out of the kindness of my heart? No, not at all. I do it all the time. Would I mind getting more for my time on content that is harder to do and thus harder to teach and most likely going to take longer for people to clear? nope! Give me more please!

[Shaolinz]

Oh I'm not downplaying your advice. We just seem to have discordance in our experience with party finder. I have only been playing the game six months, but in those six months party finder has not been a very good experience for the reasons I explained above. Also, I never once mentioned a desire to be carried and I think you incorrectly inferred that. If I wanted to do that, I could just buy a clear from the many folks selling them (which, since this market exists, something tells me people actually do have similar problems as I). I just want a fair shot and not have to wait in a queue for days to get it. Anyway, it's clear we don't see eye to eye on this issue and that's fine. I appreciate your input.

[Shaolinz]

"The community asked for the "new person"-message so we could ensure that everyone in the "farm"-group (or quick clear group) we formed, knows the fight.
You know the one harm that clear-sellers are actually doing, even though its a minor one? They're removing this message for people who dont know the fight.
I know you dont have any real ill intentions, but you're proposing a very strong incentive to carry a new person through this content.
The incentive for the new person needs to be carefully balanced - extra loot like that is way to strong. "

Well this is at least the most logical response I heard. The community essentially asked to be toxic. Regardless of your intent, that's what happens when you flag newbies in high end content. Although there are a few who will help people, most will just blame the new person for everything, which goes more or less along with my party finder experience.

This answer makes the most sense to me overall.

[Vidu]

Oh I'm not downplaying your advice. We just seem to have discordance in our experience with party finder. I have only been playing the game six months, but in those six months party finder has not been a very good experience for the reasons I explained above. Also, I never once mentioned a desire to be carried and I think you incorrectly inferred that. If I wanted to do that, I could just buy a clear from the many folks selling them (which, since this market exists, something tells me people actually do have similar problems as I). I just want a fair shot and not have to wait in a queue for days to get it. Anyway, it's clear we don't see eye to eye on this issue and that's fine. I appreciate your input.

You have a fair shot. The same shot everyone else has: Create a party that suits your needs and playstyle.
You're suggestion is aimed at "bribing" people who have already cleared that content into doing it again for a new person. When you could instead look at people like you, who havent cleared the content yet.

I'll be so honest and admit that my experience with PF for Savage is minimal because I spend time networking and dont rely on PF at all for those fights at all. I've always joined various PFs for both EX-primals and Savage to help out when I felt like it - fairly often, aswell I reckon.
You can do most of the content in this game without networking - I already explained why Savage isnt part of that and why that is a good thing (or rather: a thing thats required to make the content as difficult as it is).

I am again sorry that you had such a bad experience with PF, but honestly: I dont think your suggestion would fix that. It might become a little bit easier to get your first time clear in, but every clear after that, you have nothing to offer and are stuck with queues and PF again. And even if you dont have a bonus anymore, people might remove you from their groups after you made a stupid mistake (yes, sorry, failing the first mechanic in a fight is stupid - mistakes happen, ofc, and we should all be a bit more tolerant about them but I'll admit myself that I'm... not happy when people fail the first mechanics of a fight. Wont outright kick them, but its a strike and I start questioning how well they know the fight.)

As far as I'm concerned your answer here is: Networking. Going into those fighst with people you know. Pugging might be technically possible, but surely isnt the prefered way.

Well this is at least the most logical response I heard. The community essentially asked to be toxic. Regardless of your intent, that's what happens when you flag newbies in high end content. Although there are a few who will help people, most will just blame the new person for everything, which goes more or less along with my party finder experience.

This answer makes the most sense to me overall.

We did not ask to be toxic.
I understand why it might look that way to you, because of your angle. Let me share mine aswell, okay?
It applies a bit more to farmign EX-primals, but might aswell to getting in quick clears for the easier Savage-fights like O5S and O6S.
Let me say right away that I like to think of myself as a helpful person - I'll join Learning and Clear PFs for EX-Primals and Savage fights whenever I have the time for that and am in the right mood (happens often enough - I dont even want to count the amount of Shinryu EX parties I joined to help out, even after getting my clear and having 50 tokens in my inventory...).
But sometimes, I'm not. Sometimes, I'm in the mood to have easy, smooth farms. Or, just like you, I only have 2 hours to play and would like to get O5S and O6S done in that time. All of that is highly unlikely to happen with a new person in the party.
I'm up for teaching when I have the time for that. Thats not always the case - sometimes I just have the time to get my own clears in, given its a decent group, which is what I wanna make sure of.
Can a new person perform well? Sure - and if a bonus-person asks "Hey, I know the whole fight, seen enrage, just need the kill, is it cool for me to stay?" that is cool with me. Person gets two shots and if they prove themself, no problem!
But way, way to often you see people who dont have a clue, essentially wasting the time of 7 people who know the fight inside out and just want to kill it quickly. And that sucks. And that shouldnt happen in the first place.
Before we had the message and the option to lock out bonus-people from our parties, I saw way, way to many farm-parties disband because someone thought "Know the fight" didnt apply to them and sneaked in without knowledge. It was rude and bloody annoying.

We did not ask to be toxic.
We asked for an option to make sure we have a good experience with the game, too. And our good experience might very well be not to teach every fight over and over again all the time, but prioritise our own progression, together with other people who share that goal.

[HyoMinPark]

Oh I'm not downplaying your advice. We just seem to have discordance in our experience with party finder. I have only been playing the game six months, but in those six months party finder has not been a very good experience for the reasons I explained above.

Kaiva already asked, but how often and when are you joining groups in PF? What kind of groups are they? Are they learning groups (typically means blind/little to no experience)? Clear groups (generally means you’ve seen the entire fight)? Enrage groups (you’ve seen enrage)? What times are you joining? During peak time? Or odd hours? And how many times have you actively joined PF groups since this tier was released (about 5 weeks ago)?

Answering these questions can provide a lot of insight into why PF isn’t working for you (i.e., you’re joining at strange times; you’re joining the wrong kind of groups, etc.), and will allow people to offer suggestions. Though, you can still create your own with whatever requirements you want to set (e.g., “V5S party: please have seen up to Putrid Passenger”; or “V5S Enrage party; please have seen enrage—let’s get this clear!”).

Also, I never once mentioned a desire to be carried and I think you incorrectly inferred that. If I wanted to do that, I could just buy a clear from the many folks selling them (which, since this market exists, something tells me people actually do have similar problems as I). I just want a fair shot and not have to wait in a queue for days to get it.

I don’t see where anyone is inferring you specifically want to get carried. I think, going off of what you’ve said in this thread, that you have limited time to play, but instead of continuing to try at your own pace, you’re impatient and want the developers to make a change that will allow you to get a clear faster. The chance for clears does not decline as a tier ages (only once a new one is released). There will still be learning groups for V5S two months from now, and you can make your own whenever you want.

As for the people who buy clears, they are usually people that don’t want to put forth the effort or do not have the skill to clear a piece of content, and typically just want the shiny-shinies from the fights. People that have the time/skill to clear rarely seek to buy a clear, though I’m sure there were some that have in the past. They are hardly the majority though.

Anyway, it's clear we don't see eye to eye on this issue and that's fine. I appreciate your input.

Honestly, that’s not really the vibe I was getting from you; you made your dismissal of me seem more like “This person doesn’t agree with me; I don’t have time for them”. But, as you say. Have a wonderful weekend.

Well this is at least the most logical response I heard. The community essentially asked to be toxic. Regardless of your intent, that's what happens when you flag newbies in high end content. Although there are a few who will help people, most will just blame the new person for everything, which goes more or less along with my party finder experience.

This answer makes the most sense to me overall.

No, the community did not ask to be “more toxic”. They asked for a way to filter out bonuses when they are doing weekly clears or farm groups for a specific piece of content. There is no way to tell if bonus players have seen enough of a fight to not hinder a weekly clear or a farm. And while some that have cleared may or may not still know the fight to an adequate degree, at least with the bonus message, people will know that they have a party of players that should have what it takes to clear the content with little to no hiccups (in other words, they have experience in the fight).

When you are farming something like an Extreme primal, people do not want to teach a new person mechanics. Those new people need to seek out learning parties, learn the fight, get their clear, and then join the farm parties. There is nothing “toxic” about that. I personally find it entitled on behalf of the new person thinking they can just join a farm group without having cleared the content the group is farming. Farm parties are made to clear something multiple times in rapid succession—you can’t do that if you’re having to teach new players the most basic mechanics of a fight. There is a time and a place for learning: farm groups and weekly clears are not that.

Also, comments like “this is the most logical response I’ve heard” just reinforces my previous assumption that you were writing people off when they said things you didn’t want to hear.

most will just blame the new person for everything, which goes more or less along with my party finder experience

This makes me wonder if you were joining groups you weren’t supposed to be in, and are mad that they removed you for not meeting the requirements. There is nothing toxic about that, if that is the case. A Party leader sets requirements, and is entitled to enforce them. If you are joining weekly clears or enrage parties and dying to the first few mechanics, then those groups are not the ones you need to be in. You should join one suited to your experience with the fight. Having diagrams and mechanical timelines doesn’t give you enrage experience; actually seeing enrage is what gives you that.