Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[bounddreamer]

It's very difficult to type when your Tank sprints ahead and starts the duty and you're trying to keep up and keep it together.

You make it sound impossible. It's really not difficult to type "small pulls please" as you're loading in, before the barrier drops. I've personally had someone do that at Skalla and they further elaborated "I'm a returning healer and not confident with big pulls." I was happy to accommodate them.

Also, I have never seen a tank get kicked. Ever. I've seen tanks leave, or get shamed into leaving but tanks are the last role to get kicked because there is an obvious shortage--and very few have 'Party in Progress' checked unless they had it checked for another class.

This, friends, is what is known as "confirmation bias."

I've been in many parties when a tank was kicked for rude or disruptive play or for flat out not doing their job. I've kicked tanks for it personally. And as a tank, I've lost count of the number of duties I've joined in progress anywhere from the beginning of a dungeon up to the final boss. But it happens quite frequently I'd say.

Just like for vote-abandon, I think 15 minutes need to elapse before you can do it.

Correcting misinformation. It's actually five minutes from the start of a duty before you can kick someone.

Big pulls are absolutely not based on "bad behavior and memes." When done properly it's the most efficient way to run a level 60 or 70 dungeon and it can be a great deal of fun, as well as very satisfying to see how quickly you can clear with everyone doing their best. But as other tanks have mentioned, it's important to assess whether your party is geared and the comp supports it.

Last week I ran Fractal Hard with a returning FC mate and we had a bard who never used a single aoe ability for any pull. Fortunately my friend was on RDM and used his to the best of his ability and the WHM did plenty of Holy spam.

[Galgarion]

Does no one use greet macros anymore?

/greet

/wait 2.5

/s Heyo, I like to do big pulls. Feel free to tell me to speed up or slow down.

/wait 2.5

/ac "Balldance"

[WilhelmWhite]

Did a Fractal hard run, and everyone except the tank was a Roe bro.



Fun times ;3

[MoroMurasaki]

You're both right. It depends on what your success rate is. If it's 100%, then you optimize for speed.

If it's not 100% (and yes, people do wipe on this stuff), trying to go faster is going to make it go slower.

That math changes between people, it's not something that has a single always correct answer when done in a vaccum. For example: Some people do the pulls between bosses 1 & 2 in Ala Mhigo as one pull. I do them as two, because I've had too many wipes caused by trying to do it as one and it's not a net gain for me.

I think if I were to try to elaborate on this in an effort to figure out a real "best case" for every dungeon it would likely still mean having the tank pull multiple packs at a time to start.

Using Ala Mhigo as an example it is successful in most parties to pull up to the first wall and I think any tank should start that dungeon that way unless they know for sure that there is a weak link in their group. If that goes off without a hitch I don't think there is any harm in trying the largest pulls you can from there on out.

Most dungeons have a similar pull to start them off - Skalla has two packs up to a wall, Temple of the Fist has the Couerls and the moss wall that spawns adds and Kugane also begins with a technically two-pack pull that is rather manageable.

A good tank will take that opportunity to gague the group and assess whether they can handle some of the larger pulls later on. If you've lost someome during the opening pull that is smaller than some of the potential megapulls earlier on then slow it down, if your healer and dps were mostly AoEing down the packs though...

So yeah, I say pull big until you have a reason not to. Whether that reason is your own lack of confidence, a healer asking for smaller pulls or derp dps doesn't really matter. Will you wipe on occasion? Sure, but the vast majority of the time things will go fine and the time you'd lose single pulling by default will far outweigh the rare wipe on a larger pull.

Clearly communication would be preferable but if that isn't an option and we're just trying to establish a fair baselinr I think this is the most reasonable one.

[winsock]

.
This is the attitude that breeds this sort of behavior. The tank doesn't get to make everyone accommodate THEIR style of play either. Most of the time we are forced to, because of role mechanics but that doesn't give tanks carte blanc to make everyone work twice as hard to cover their ass.

Again... We are talking a minimum of cure II spam and sprint... Not asking you to move the world or be some WHM savant, am asking you, at the very least, to press one button repeatedly. Is that too much to ask / expect?
If so, what do you think I should be able to expect from healers?

Healers with attitudes like yours have no accountability. If I pull 1 group at a time, I don't need a healer, but if I pull more than one group and I problem occurs, it's the tanks fault for pulling too much, even if the healer stops casting for 3 gcds.... Or decides cure I is ideal for large pulls

What do you think is reasonable amount of consistent healing to expect from a healer?

[ChaoticCrimson]

Oh man, so the other night it was getting late and I decided to do a quick run of Fractal Hard before calling it a night. The run was going smoothly for the most part. All three of the other party members were in a group together, doing the run for their first time, taking their time and enjoying it. All good stuff, I don't mind tagging along. We approached the second boss room. I intended to set the focus target during the approach like I normally do, but I apparently flubbed... something (I honestly don't even know how I managed it) and accidently fired off a Fleche at the boss right as we all started entering the room. I was absolutely mortified and owned up to it as soon as the fight ended and I had a second to do so, which was followed by pat and blow kiss emotes directed at me. Everything else went smoothly though. So if anyone from the party from Jenova I was with for that run happens to be reading this, please know I am still sorry about that and that I did not mean to initiate that little snafu...

[Tridus]

I think if I were to try to elaborate on this in an effort to figure out a real "best case" for every dungeon it would likely still mean having the tank pull multiple packs at a time to start.

For you and I, it would, yeah. That's not universally true, which is the point I was trying to make. If you have a group that can't handle that, trying to do it because it's faster will actually make it slower. See the nightmare gong show of tanks in shire gear trying to do big pulls in Doma Castle. That was not fun.

Using Ala Mhigo as an example it is successful in most parties to pull up to the first wall and I think any tank should start that dungeon that way unless they know for sure that there is a weak link in their group. If that goes off without a hitch I don't think there is any harm in trying the largest pulls you can from there on out.

Most dungeons have a similar pull to start them off - Skalla has two packs up to a wall, Temple of the Fist has the Couerls and the moss wall that spawns adds and Kugane also begins with a technically two-pack pull that is rather manageable.

A good tank will take that opportunity to gague the group and assess whether they can handle some of the larger pulls later on. If you've lost someome during the opening pull that is smaller than some of the potential megapulls earlier on then slow it down, if your healer and dps were mostly AoEing down the packs though...

So yeah, I say pull big until you have a reason not to. Whether that reason is your own lack of confidence, a healer asking for smaller pulls or derp dps doesn't really matter. Will you wipe on occasion? Sure, but the vast majority of the time things will go fine and the time you'd lose single pulling by default will far outweigh the rare wipe on a larger pull.

Clearly communication would be preferable but if that isn't an option and we're just trying to establish a fair baselinr I think this is the most reasonable one.

Yep. Taking the ten seconds to ask if people want big pulls works too.

[Spiriel_Basanda]

Boy, do I have a story of Duty Finder horror for everyone. Yesterday was amazing. Amazingly bad. My runs in the duty finder were something that has convinced me that if I ever need to spam dungeons for Mendacity, never to do Hells' Lid. They were as follows:

1.) Hells' Lid. The first thing that happens is this AST says he's a Savage Raider and that the tank can pull as much as he wants. I'm immediately given a sign that this might not go so well, as when the tank was given permission to pull as much as he wants, he takes the first 3 crabs and pulls it to the wall; there are no monsters between the first 3 crabs and the wall, so it was a pointless pull. It didn't really hurt anything though, and after that everything went fine. Until we get to the second boss. We get to the second boss and the healer dies to the thingie where the boss hides itself, you have to kill the air elementals while the boss zips around the room. We wipe not long after that. No big deal, one accidental wipe, it happens. We kill the boss on take 2 and proceed. This is where everything went south. We pulled far more then we could handle and we wiped. Revive, go back to that point, the tank pulls before the healer is there, so we make the same pull with no protect up and the healer gets there around when the tank is half dead(On this pull I realize the tank isn't the greatest. He pulls the big water snake thing through the tunnel, but while he's running through the tunnel with just the big water snake thing in tow, I see him pop both Rampart and Convalesence, so he had very few CDs for dealing with the trash when we stopped to kill. I've suggested we make a smaller pull at this point, we make the SAME pull but manage to at least kill one thing before we wiped. The next time will be easier, right? It took 3 Boles and my Palisade, but we finally got past that pull. In what world was this a Savage Raid quality healer, heh. I don't think I've wiped on the same trash pull that much before.

2.) A Fractal Hard that was actually really smooth and was nothing noteworthy

3.) Another Fractal Hard. This time however, the healer said he was new to this dungeon and asked everyone to take it easy on him. No big deal, right? I don't mind. The party agrees, and we take it really slowly. We pull the dungeon one group at a time, the whole time. Mind you I'm trying to cap Mendacity at this point cause it's getting late and I'm not there yet. It was a really chill dungeon and we never wiped(Though the WHM died to the first Citadel Buster on the first boss, so the PLD, SAM and I trio'd it, heh), so I'm fine with it. This dungeon is only noteworthy because when we get to the last boss, the three other party members admit to either being high and/or drunk, which absolutely explains why everyone was okay with pulling so slowly, hah.

4.) Another Hells' Lid. We get into the dungeon and the tank AFK's for 2 or 3 minutes without even saying anything, but it's smooth for most of the run after he starts moving. However,this run was similar to the first in that we wiped a lot on the trash after the second boss. I swear off Hells' Lid at this point.

5.) Fractal Hard. Fractal Hard has been easy thus far, and Hells' Lid has been, well, Hell so far, so clearly Fractal Hard is the dungeon I should be spamming for Mendacity when I need to hurriedly cap it, right? Wrong. Clearly I angered the Game Gods somehow today at some point. The tank decides that he's going to pull EVERYTHING at once on the second platform, as if to say "Oh, you haven't wiped on Fractal Hard trash yet, have you? I'll fix that". He took the rest of the run a bit slower so that didn't happen again, but good lord. What a day in the DF.

Moral of this story is don't wait until Monday to cap Mendacity.

[duvvvv]

I kinda agree with the last comment in that pic, you shouldn't have to watch YouTube to be able to play a game. That's bad game design imo. I think Dark Souls --snip---

I agree that FFXIV players don't need to watch YouTube in order to clear any content, but saying it's bad design because Dark Souls...no. you can beat Dark Souls playing on your own, this is an MMO--group synergy matters. the issue has always been players who are rude with newbies, who refuse to help, or are just jerks. all MMOs have their share of these types. you can always find a learning group and clear any duty without a guide, but the DF is not the best place to look for one.
---
@topic
yesterday/last night was the first time I had to kick a tank in a party. DR 50/60, got Amdapor Keep with 3 sprouts, I was BLM. I don't tank so when PLD told us to let him know if he's doing anything wrong I didn't say a thing, and failed to notice he wasn't using flash, as there were moments when he couldn't maintain enmity. TBH, I didn't mind that the tanking was far from perfect, our SCH was doing great, the run was smooth enough, but PLD got offended when SAM asked him a few times why he's not using "Blinde", then "Are you a new tank". PLD stopped midway to 2nd boss and explained that the gear discrepancy is the issue, that there's nothing he could do, and he's been tanking for 15 years (!) then probably walked away iRL because he didn't respond for at least 5 minutes when we asked if we could move forward. kicked him for AFK

[Kacho_Nacho]

Does no one use greet macros anymore?

/greet

/wait 2.5

/s Heyo, I like to do big pulls. Feel free to tell me to speed up or slow down.

/wait 2.5

/ac "Balldance"

I like that one! May I yoink it for my paladin toon?