[dev1206] Class Reforms: why the 15/11 limit?

[Firon]

I'm still trying to figure out what's so bad about having 11 traits vs the7 or 8 max you can get in the game now.

Also honestly most ppl don't even use 15 actions from their main class tbh so i don't get that point either, i loged on XIV just a sec ago and most of my skills are cross class while 8 of them are used from main <.<

[Monsalvato]

Now if you got what betel was saying if XI did the system XIV was gonna get even @ 99 brd would have only 20 spells cause 70% of that list can become more compact.

I think I'm not getting this, sorry D: Can you explain it any other way?

I see two main differences between the two
1) Different format (FFXI use a "tiers" format, FFXIV use a "scaled" format like WoW)
2) Useless songs (songs that you could easily live without because you never use them anyway)


What are we talking about here? 1)? I don't really see the difference, it's not like you use low tier songs anyway, you just use the best one (x2).
This is just a different format, neither is right or wrong, both have pros and cons, there really are no big differences here.
If you're instead saying about 2) then yeah, FFXI (not just BRD) is full of spells/abilities nobody use because they're badly balanced/unefficient or just plain useless.
We all could live without them for sure and nobody would miss them or even notice they're gone away

But reducing the total number of spells/actions developers are "allowed" to give to jobs, doesn't necessarily mean that they'll all be useful.
For instance from the class reform list, I can already spot a few actions that looks potentially useless and that nobody will use, especially after you obtained better ones from higher levels.
This is just to show once again what I meant earlier.

That is that the balancing of classes and of abilities is done on a case-by-case process through a complex fine-tuning of each.
Forcing this number to be 15 (or any other number) doesn't automatically ENSURE that all of those abilities will be perfectly balanced, useful, efficient and entertaining to use.
You'll still need the case-by-case fine-tuning (altough if we're speaking about statistics, of course it's much easier and hence more likely to be able to balance 15 abilities over a short time, compared to the amount of work and time you'd need to balance 50)

And this brings up back to my question.
Why did they do it?
Is it a "temporary solution" for the beta-game that FFXIV will continue to be until 2.0? If that's the truth... I'd probably be fine, because then I'd knew it would be only temporary, to make their job easier until 2.0 ships, since the team working on the live FFXIV is much smaller than the one working on the 2.0 version.
Once 2.0 hits the two teams will rejoin and then they'll be able to handle all sort of things.
Is this the cause?
If it is, I think I'd be fine with how things are going. I would consider it a temporary and necessary compromise.
But if that's not the case then I still stand by my position that they are making a game design mistake by going this way, and that they will potentially bring in more issues than those they're trying to address, in due time.

[Chardrizard]

There is no need for multiple spells or multiple tiers, it might feels like you have more choice but it was never that way, there has always been only that choice of spells you'll use. It only gave you the illusion of freedom.

Easy example from XI or could be used for XIV,
Protect & Shell -> Wall
1238193819-na's -> Esuna
1231973719 Threnodies -> Threnody that reduce all magic resistance?
Fire I/II/III/IV/V/VI/VII/VIII/IX -> Fire that scales with your level, omg!

and 15/11 limit is only for level50cap, there is no doubt this will change as they increase level cap.

[Monsalvato]

I'm still trying to figure out what's so bad about having 11 traits vs the7 or 8 max you can get in the game now.

Also honestly most ppl don't even use 15 actions from their main class tbh so i don't get that point either, i loged on XIV just a sec ago and most of my skills are cross class while 8 of them are used from main <.<

Considering actions will be unified in a single scaling one (and not multi tiers like now) I don't think 15 is too small of a number.
Actually for some DoW it might be even too high, and that's what I was saying... it's a natural consequence some of these actions will just be "useless placeholders" that nobody will use but still has to be there because each class NEEDS to reach 15. Don't you think it would just be better to stay at, say, 13 instead of having 2 completly useless abilities?

It's the opposite for DoM, 15 won't be near enough imho. I look at Conjurer, I look ad Thaumaturge, and no, 15 is not enough.
The way they "changed" these two jobs is pretty messi and disappointing in my opinion, I tried to explain why in my previous posts but I guess I failed and looked like yet the nth person who only wants to whine and complain and drop shit on the game.
It wasn't my intention... but still, I guess that's what I'll look like. Sorry

[Firon]

I don't think you are whining just saying less spells does not make the job worse, if the situation was reversed someone would say ask: Why do we need more useless spells/abilities?

[normalforce]

There is no need for multiple spells or multiple tiers, it might feels like you have more choice but it was never that way, there has always been only that choice of spells you'll use. It only gave you the illusion of freedom.

Easy example from XI or could be used for XIV,
Protect & Shell -> Wall
1238193819-na's -> Esuna
1231973719 Threnodies -> Threnody that reduce all magic resistance?
Fire I/II/III/IV/V/VI/VII/VIII/IX -> Fire that scales with your level, omg!

and 15/11 limit is only for level50cap, there is no doubt this will change as they increase level cap.

For a little perspective, assuming the same progression from 1 to 50, increasing the level cap to 70 would increase the limit to 20/16 with 15 cross-class abilities. Basically 5 new actions and 5 new traits spread across 20 levels. And assuming that classes don't just stop after 50, for example, CNJ will get 5 new actions and 5 new traits as well as WHM.

[Monsalvato]

There is no need for multiple spells or multiple tiers, it might feels like you have more choice but it was never that way, there has always been only that choice of spells you'll use. It only gave you the illusion of freedom.

Easy example from XI or could be used for XIV,
Protect & Shell -> Wall
1238193819-na's -> Esuna
1231973719 Threnodies -> Threnody that reduce all magic resistance?
Fire I/II/III/IV/V/VI/VII/VIII/IX -> Fire that scales with your level, omg!

and 15/11 limit is only for level50cap, there is no doubt this will change as they increase level cap.

I think you're making confusion between "horizontal variety" and "vertical variety".
FFXIV was, like FFXI and many other titles, a game which made use of "vertical variety".
That means that each action gets learned at a certain level with fixed stats. At higher levels you learn a higher tier of the same action with better stats, and so on.
From 1.20 onwards FFXIV will use a different system, a "scaling system", just like WoW and other games use.
This system has a single version for each different action. The stats on these actions are not fixed and scale accordingly to your level.
There is no "better system" among these two, they're just different and have different pros and cons, I'm fine with both, that's absolutely NOT THE PROBLEM with me

Then you have "horizontal variety", which is harder to explain and has nothing to do with the vertical one. You have different versions of the SAME spell, to use in different situations.
A good example of these are the different elements.
For example Fire, Water, Thunder and so on. In a game system where you have 6 elements, each in a "weak to" / "strong to" relation to each other (the so called "elemental wheel") you need to make a choice which spell to use because some will be more efficient than others, some may even heal your target.
That has nothing to do with "Vertical Variety", which is going away and I'm fine with that.

If you make so all elements are the same and it's just a different animation, an important strategic aspect of FF will vanish into nothingness.
Of course, it may replaced by new interesting strategic aspects that weren't there before, but still, do I have the right to say I'm sad to see this going? Or do I have to pretend I'm happy/I don't care? (SUPPOSING this is going, it's just a risk at the moment, not a certainty I hope ^^)

Concerning your buffs and dispel example, in other games it's just called "homogeneization".
A bit of homogeneization is good imho, FFXI was probably too much unnecessarily complex in this regard.
So talking about the -na spells then yes, I can agree FFXI probably had too many.
But at the same time jumping from "too many" to "a single one" wouldn't it be a bit too radical of a change?
And, again, another loss of game depth, since it was a way to display your skills, strategy and decisional power to use the right -na at the right time.
So yeah, reducing them is all good, but making so there's a single one it's a bit too much.

And it's the same for buffs imho. Grouping some of them is fine, but overdo that and it's gonna end up like post 4.0 WoW, where buffs are so homogenized and similar to each other that they don't really matter anymore.
WoW doesn't have a "support" type of class, it only has Ranged DDs, melee DDs, tanks and healers. FFXIV probably wants to have supporters? Because if you homogeneize things too much you kinda kill the necessity of a supporter job/class.

[Jinko]

I have no problem with CON having 15 skills/spell.

I have 9 on my main bar which I use all the time, Tranquility, Cure 2, 3, Chainspell, Rebirth, Shockspikes, Stoneskin, Shell and Protect.

I have mostly elemental stuff on bar 2 which has nothing to do with healing.

What I would like to see them do is make the action bar 15 slots long now so I can have all my spells from one class/job on one bar.

I wish someone could make a comparison of what we have spell wise now and what we will have, with arrows to explain where spells have gone.

I think you will be surprised that we haven't lost much at all.

[Chardrizard]

There is no depth and strategy in many barspell/-na's/threnody.

FFXI's example,
For Tiamat, u use barfire only. There was never a time u'll reconsider to use barwater or any other bar's.
For Kirin, you will only be using barstone and wind threnody, never anything else.

This is what i mean by the illusion of freedom, you are pigeonholed to specific spells on specific contents, sure on some case like Salvage Bosses, u have to do Silena and Paralyna, but pressing one more button doesn't add more strategy or depth in it.

Regardin Elemental Wheel, Maybe we could see them splitting into two group, Astral Elements/Umbral Elements, both of which will covers 6 elements but only needing it to be only 2 variety of spells. While i actually prefers 1 spells compacted together, but this might make it for both sides to be happy.

[Shaedhen]

There is no need for multiple spells or multiple tiers, it might feels like you have more choice but it was never that way, there has always been only that choice of spells you'll use. It only gave you the illusion of freedom.

Easy example from XI or could be used for XIV,
Protect & Shell -> Wall
1238193819-na's -> Esuna
1231973719 Threnodies -> Threnody that reduce all magic resistance?
Fire I/II/III/IV/V/VI/VII/VIII/IX -> Fire that scales with your level, omg!

and 15/11 limit is only for level50cap, there is no doubt this will change as they increase level cap.

Or they can make a single action called "attack" that does everything for you no matter what's going on in the fight.

It's not about giving an illusion of freedom, it's about making fights more tactical and force you to work in team. See what others do, use the appropriate spell or action to gain full benefit of what others did before. What you suggest is just an extreme simplification of battle mechanics