Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[EllieShadeflare]

PREACHHHHH

Which is honestly why BLM should have a pretty large margin of damage over other jobs. Not to mention, we kinda have to turret too, so that should give us a bit of a margin over Samurai, who already has a pretty large margin over everyone else but Summoner.

[Llugen]

To paraphrase my previous post Resurrection is not an action that suddenly makes SMN a raise dispenser.

So I'd just like to share my first-hand experience from last night that I personally on SMN was able to give four raises during Nael phase of Unending Bahamut (two swiftcast two slowcast), STILL MAINTAIN top damage (dots and slowcast, plus the BRD/DRG both died at some point), and make it just about to Seventh Umbral Calamity (we didn't have the bodies for the last Thermionic Beam).

Would the raising have been easier on RDM? Definitely. Was I capable of executing it on SMN? Also definitely.





This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say "the mere access to the skill is paramount". Do I WANT to stop my rotation/damage to use Resurrection? Hell no. Is it really good for the group/progression's sake? Hell yes, especially when both healers die to the same mechanic. If you need another example of this in video, go watch Eirene Snow use Raise once in Twintania phase and once during Nael while maintaining top damage in his clear video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY-F3KJgrL0


That's called being a team player and/or realizing before how I was talking about "personal damage does not outweigh group damage (read: someone lying on the floor)" BLM deserves not to be shut out of this incredibly valuable part of the role balance. (or, as mentioned before, access to this power needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY trimmed a la what Remedi has been saying).

[Remedi]

That STILL doesn't mean that the job can't "play in a similar manner", that all depends on implementation. Besides, by this logic, though RDM has always had access to white magic, it's unprecedented for the job to be the "go-to rez dispenser" at such a ridiculously high degree (not to mention access to the most powerful magic would have been off-limits (Verflare, Verholy)).

Not sure that the RDMs at large particularly appreciate this, it's just enormously helpful so it's taken in stride.



Honestly, it's akin to what you said in the DRG heavy thrust on the job gauge thread, it wouldn't even affect probably half the playerbase but the other half would be infinitely grateful for it.

Verflare and Verholy do fall in your category of implementation not on mine about what a job can do.
They are black and white magic, true they are of higher level normnally but you still expect RDM to be a caster of both world and in all fairness in some FF you could set black magic or white magic command so that it would expand your red magic to the highest level.

Now think about the many threads about SMN not beign like the normal SMN of the franchise, I can't really say that lore is not important in the grand scheme of things, while gameplay is important, lore is just as much as I said before without some barriers you would only end up in having the jobs beign the same

[Llugen]

"jobs being the same" is why it's all the more important to have proper implementation (avoid homogenization). This is another "pro" that off-GCD raise would have.


Consider also that there needs careful attention paid to what "being the same" even means. All the DPS do damage, all the healers do healing and raising and have some form of shield. All the tanks tank and have some kind of party defensive cooldown. Whatever playing "the same" means is pretty fast and loose.


If anything the caster role is the most wildly different of the bunch: RDM has no dots, and has every other cast instant with movement focus, SMN has two dots and off-GCD nuke focus, and BLM has one DoT and hardcast/recharge focus. Meanwhile, consider that all the melee have one DoT to manage, a buff/resistance down rotation, and a "filler" rotation, all of which is quite rigid. Why aren't we accusing them of "playing the same"? Adding ONE FUNCTION for the sake of balance (carefully considered) is far from making the casters "play all the same"

[Remedi]

As I keep saying it's that one precedent that can lead to the fall of jobs beign the same.

Also frankly I feel like that there's this unrealistic thing that ppl wants jobs beign exactly the same in terms of damage, have the same sinergy and utility while also still beign completely unique in their own way

[EllieShadeflare]

"jobs being the same" is why it's all the more important to have proper implementation (avoid homogenization). This is another "pro" that off-GCD raise would have.

Having the raise would still homogenize the classes, not to mention spit in the faces of players who know that Raise hasn't really been a BLM thing since day one of the job's introduction all the way back in FF1, and hasn't been made available in specific exceptions (like job/custom systems but it's not even their own spell or where there's no real delineation between Black and White Magic like in FFVI to FFVIII).

Consider also that there needs careful attention paid to what "being the same" even means. All the DPS do damage, all the healers do healing and raising and have some form of shield. All the tanks tank and have some kind of party defensive cooldown. Whatever playing "the same" means is pretty fast and loose.

If I may,

White Mage kinda has a heal in Divine Benison, but they're not exactly all that good at it with just a 15% MHP barrier that costs all of the lillies that could speed up Assize and focuses heavily on Regens and pure healing + damage as well as having the objective best MP management of any healer. Astrologian is absolutely and utterly broken and does everything better than the other two healers to the point that you may as well delete White Mage and Scholar a jack of all trades that has either better barriers like than Scholar or almost better Regen like White Mage, as well as a heavy emphasis on utility cards and having the worst MP management and damage of the bunch. Scholar has been nerfed to the ground is a more strategic healer, using barriers to patch holes that need to be filled by oGCDs and flying garbage the fairy with the highest DPS potential and the mother of all multipliers that is Chain Stratagem.

As for tanks, Warrior is a murdertastic, DPS-focused tank that loses out on defense in favor of raw HP, and at one point lacked a party defense (until Shake it Off was reworked) and has the only buff-rotation of the three as well as the most spammable and powerful single target nuke (Fell Cleave). Paladin lacks much mechanics in the Oath Gauge beyond two oGCDs, but is highly defensive, has an actual heal spell and is utterly overpowered has the best tools to support the party. Dark Knight is utter trash has a constant DPS boost, the highest damage while in tank stance, a defensive utility that ALSO helps its offence, and has a significant emphasis on MP management, unlike the other two tanks (even Paladin who also uses MP for Clemency and Holy Spirit don't use it nearly as much as Dark Knight).

In addition, all of their tools are pretty much different, despite having "similar" types of tools. A Dark Knight doesn't play like a Warrior which doesn't play like a Paladin, and a White Mage doesn't play like a Scholar which doesn't play like an Astrologian. Hell, not all of their tools are even equivalent, which can be seen in the "common" skills between the three.

Warrior's two single target nukes, Fell Cleave and Inner Beast, are unique in being separate at all, with one being purely offensive with a whopping 500 potency base and the other being a self heal + utility hybrid. Bloodspiller needs both MP and Blood Gauge to hit as hard as Fell Cleave and Spit and Carve has a dual role depending on whether you use Dark Arts or not. Meanwhile, Holy Spirit is the only straightforward nuke of the bunch, and just uses MP.

White Mage has the two best "emergency" heals in the game, with Tetragrammaton having its cooldown reduced with Lillies and Benediction being a full heal, and then there's Plenary Indulgence which benefits from other AoE heals. Scholar's healing buttons are generally locked behind Aetherflow, while Astrologian only has two "reliable" healing oGCDs in Earthly Star for AoE and Essential Dignity for single target.

If anything the caster role is the most wildly different of the bunch: RDM has no dots, and has every other cast instant with movement focus, SMN has two dots and off GCD focus, and BLM has one DoT and hardcast focus. Consider that all the melee have one DoT to manage, a buff rotation, and a "filler" rotation. Why aren't we accusing them of "playing the same"?

Cough cough, you're objectively wrong.

The only thing the melee jobs have in common is the DoT and the damage rotation, but even that is debatable. Monk doesn't conform to a "rotation", considering it has its unique form system, Samurai has nothing but buff rotations (Seriously, all three "rotations, Gekko, Kasha and Yukikaze provides a buff in some form, Yukikaze provides a slash debuff if there's no WAR or NIN, Kasha's prereq Shifu increases speed, and Gekko's prereq Jinpu increases damage) as well as being one of the few melee-ranged classes to have a cast timer for attacks, Dragoon has a buildup and oGCD focus much like Summoner (as well as the only four step comboes in the game) and Ninja has to weave Mudras on top of maintaining their combos. Hell, Bard and Machinist are also as different as night and day, with Machinist being able to "confirm" their RNG and use turrets, while Bard uses DoTs and stance dancing.

Gee, it's almost like the DPS roles aren't homogenized at all, even within their supposed "roles" and that calling for "role balance" by creating homogenization isn't exactly a productive idea.

[Llugen]

As I keep saying it's that one precedent that can lead to the fall of jobs beign the same.

Also frankly I feel like that there's this unrealistic thing that ppl wants jobs beign exactly the same in terms of damage, have the same sinergy and utility while also still beign completely unique in their own way

That paradox is keenly felt, certainly.

That's part of why I'm a little skeptical in general of it, as per my previous post. What even is "play the same"? We're all pressing GCDs and off-GCDs and maximizing our efficiency through the means given to us. We're ALL playing the same (I hope).


"Unique", or at least, enough for me is aesthetic and general "feel" of the rotation, not access to direly useful (read: practically mandatory by the playerbase's standards) recovery tools.

Unique is BRD having dots and songs, while MCH has a turret and overheat, NOT that they both have access to support (dismantle/troubadour) or offensive utility (battle voice+foe requiem, hypercharge), not to mention of course the actual role pool skills. To me, that is different enough while still "able" to cover very close to the exact same role "requirements".


Oh, and side note, we already hashed out the "precedent" thing, at least kind of. NIN could use some looking at as per role adjustment due to its invaluable enmity tools/Trick Attack, but saying that giving BLM access to Raise will pave the way for "all classes to beg for trick attack" is definitely a stretch in logic. Again, there's no expectation of the melee role to do healing or raising, but there IS an expectation of the caster role doing it. In fact, anecdotally, since Feint is still pretty new on the role, I see loads of melee being "uncomfortable" with its usage. Meanwhlie, casters have had access to tools like that forever (Virus, Eye for an Eye, Apoc, Raise), so I feel pretty confident in my stance.


Also, at risk of sounding like an even bigger tool than I already have in this thread so far, I'm going to quote myself here with regard to your consideration for what balance would look like:

Again, if they feel like removing it, or at least nerfing it down a few notches (Remove Resurrection from SMN completely, remove Dualcast trait from Vercure and Verraise and increase their MP cost enough to actually be hampering so the RDM cannot even use two slowcasted back to back) so that the precedent for it is significantly lower, then the role would become balanced enough. This would remove the "alluring trait" of Raise on RDM/SMN, which would make their main draw be damage utility again, not recovery tools.

Note how this would create a situation where BLM is "high damage and low (zero) party utility", SMN is "moderate damage and moderate party utility", and RDM is "low damage and high party utility (buff embolden plz) including recovery tools in an emergency and at great cost".

This is what balance looks like. Or at least, by their own logic.

[Kabooa]

The only thing the melee jobs have in common is the DoT and the damage rotation, but even that is debatable.

Gee, it's almost like the DPS roles aren't homogenized at all, even within their supposed "roles" and that calling for "role balance" by creating homogenization isn't exactly a productive idea.

Homogenization doesn't mean they play the same. It means they have access to the same tools and functions. Melee roles have plenty of distinction among the jobs from each other, but they all still have the same basic set of tools with only a few differences.

The Role system itself is already a layer of homogenization, as was the Cross Class system.

[Remedi]

It's not even the same thing, trick attack can be given to other jobs because it's not a definitive trait of NIN ot anyone else, there's nothing that's stops other jobs from giving them trick attack or similar effects, I was surprised that overcharge is not exclusive with trick for example since they share debuff type.
All jobs could in fact inflict a weakness on the enemy and there's literally nothing that stops them.

Meanwhile Raise is an action that usually is relegated to healer-type jobs and we have it on some casters because of reasons we already discussed. While you may argue that they are extremely strong tools they are not in the same category.
A better comparison could be shadewalker or smoke bombs tbh,
That said that's why it would pave the way to homogenization, because you are literally asking them to add something that, while it would make the role balanced gameplaywise, it would be essentially break the functions of an RPG.
And if they fall to that, they will fall to anything else after.

[Kabooa]

Meanwhile Raise is an action that usually is relegated to healer-type jobs and we have it on some casters because of reasons we already discussed. While you may argue that they are extremely strong tools they are not in the same category.

I think you could remove the Threat Management tools of Ninja, and they'd still be brought solely because Trick Attack is among one of the strongest Raid boosts currently in the game, and Monk/Samurai cannot offer better. Especially considering Shirk, the most -overpowered ability in the game-, exists.

I don't think you could remove Raise from Summoner or Red Mage in the current state of the game and have the same results. Red Mage would never be brought, even if they received a fair damage buff, and Summoner would have a much harder time justifying its slot against the Bard.