Either SMN and RDM should lose their Raise or BLM should get a Raise.

[Miracle_Diva]

@Llugen You can't blame DPS for healers being dead, replace them... Seriously, it's time to stop.
If it comes to this, why not just add raise to every other class in the game?
I already said that before, if your group can't handle mechanics and blame you for not playing class they would like you to play more, find another group that would play with BLM and work on learning instead of just waiting for someone to rez your healers, who keep failing. And poof. Problem with raise solved.
Everyone should put effort in progression, not just someone in particular.

[GaitSpiff]

Can't say I've encountered a "sure wish we had x class" situation in my raid group, more often it's been "sure wish we were paying a hair more attention there" because of a small lapse that wiped the group. Honestly I rather like the current state of Black Mage in all aspects except, of course that they are being surpassed WAY too easily (as anyone who looks at FFLogs could tell just by looking at how around 4/5 of the top DPS role parses for endgame fights are SMN). I most strongly agree with Miracle_Diva's point though, even in cases where it's somewhat an emergency, it's not really the role of the casters to have to pick up the healers' slack and raise someone. Heck, if we want to look at the class/job that most deserves to receive a raise for emergency purposes, I would purport that a Paladin would have a bit more reason to use it and would suffer a bit, since Requiescat+Holy Spirit DPS phase is a part of our rotation now, but still has the ability to hardcast it out thanks to the trait we get at level 64. It would also fit with the lore of PLD as a defender/protector of the weak compared to that of BLM's "must kill the target efficiently by hitting it hard", or as you put it "Explosion focused", lore more readily.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

If he cares so much about being an asset to his team, he's starkly reacting the wrong way. If your whole emphasis is on clearing the content and being as useful as possible you shouldn't be caring what job you had to play, your concern should be somewhere along the lines of enjoying how best you facilitated the group and taking satisfaction in the fact that you were integral to your teams success but at least that's how I see it should be. Although to be fair it also shouldn't come at the cost of your personal enjoyment.

I don't want you to be forced to play RDM Llugen since it's clear you don't like it whatsoever. I flatly disagree that adding a Raise for BLM will do much to help (if anything). If Raise was something the Devs thought belonged on the cross role section, it would most likely be there no? I can make a Raise suggestion if you'd like but pretty much anything I think would make BLM Raise more impactful than oGCD 180 second recast has already been said. If you need a specific one, I liked Kabooa's suggestion (I think it's in the 20-25 page range) of just putting it into the cross role section and giving it a long cast time only mitigated by class specific tools with a long recast time, effectively equalizing all the Raises. Plus it wouldn't do anything to lore since cross role skills just don't have lore really.

I'm with Remedi on the side of Raise makes encounters far too trivial and I think I said earlier that wipes are part of the experience. It's incredible to me that you can first day 2/4 encounters simply because you can just Raise past them and just smacks of there being an issue with Raise, the encounter tuning, or both (personally I think it's definitely both). And honestly I want to apologize for my posts of late, it's not fair and I should be trying to get along better since we all clearly love (or at least like) this game and want it to be better. And honestly I like that we can actually have a debate about the game issues or theorycrafting, tried it once on a different game forum and all the other responders did was trash talk the devs and make a pity party, it was awful.

And as far as getting back to the topic, and I detest repeating myself because I feel like a dingus doing it, I don't necessarily think Red Mage needs Verraise to be removed completely, but it definitely needs a notable cooldown (15-30 seconds) since Red Mage has very high access to instant casting. And as far as SMN I don't really see why they also need Raise at this point anymore since they're now top DPS and also have a high rDPS contribution as well as healing increase and damage mitigation and much higher mobility than before.

[Ceallach]

Is this ridiculous argument with Llugen still going? Wow, okay. Let's settle this once and for all.

Basically every shred of your argument in favor of black mages getting a Raise variant has been shredded to pieces, so I don't need to do that. If you want to cast Raise as a black mage, try raiding as a thaumaturge instead so you can take cross-class actions instead of having black mage's job actions. That functionality does exist in FINAL FANTASY XIV.

Basically every shred of your argument regarding the lore of the game and series has also been shredded to pieces. In addition to your horrible examples, you don't even seem to know what a black mage is.

Literally every logical explanation for why you're wrong has been responded to with, "You don't understand," or, "Stop trolling me." That is the most childish and stupid thing I've seen in a long time. You can be passionate about your job and want to help your team all you like. No one should have a problem with that. I certainly don't. However, until you own the rights to the FINAL FANTASY series, or even just this game, you can just shove right off with your idiotic ideas about "balancing the jobs." Yes, black mage needs help. No, a Raise variant is not the correct answer. What would help is better DPS. The devs have already promised to address that in late January.

Now, if you want a job that does literally everything in the game, I advise you to quit this game. Play FINAL FANTASY XI instead and main blue mage. Then you really will be able to do everything on one job. With nearly 200 spells, blue mages can fill literally any role. You can tank without drawing your sword, heal to your heart's content, and even wipe out entire zones of mobs with just a few spells and slashes. But here in Eorzea, no one person can ever do anything. There are limits that are put in place for both lore and game-balancing reasons, and you refuse to appreciate that.

Furthermore, I'd like to mention that summoners having Resurrection is fine, considering all but one famous summoner has been a white mage as well, plus summon magic has traditionally included support options, including Phoenix. I'm sure the reasons put forth to make scholar work in Sastasha is also true, but it's not a break from the lore to let summoners have such a spell. It would be a break in the lore to let a black mage have it.

[LeeraSorlan]

Snip.

As much as i disagree with BLM needing a raise, i really feel like people should not make the excuse that it doesnt fit into lore.

Lore was created by the dev team, lore is still being created by the dev team, lore is not set in stone, it is changable and manipulatable. The lore is whatever the devs have the desire to make it into, to shape it the way they see fit and the way they want. So if something isnt "lore friendly" the devs need to simply write something and boom, its in the lore.


Lore is the last excuse you should be making when arguing why something is not in this game

[Dualgunner]

Do you perhaps, have a compromise? An idea of some defensive utility to give Black Mage that won't be a break in the lore? Or perhaps, do you have any ideas how a raise-like skill could be given to Black Mage that wouldn't break its lore? GaitSpiff had some unique ideas in the last page.

[Ceallach]

As much as i disagree with BLM needing a raise, i really feel like people should not make the excuse that it doesnt fit into lore.

Llugen tried the same comeback, and it doesn't work. Black mages throughout the entire series have literally never been able to heal or support in and of themselves, except for the Temper spell in FINAL FANTASY (the first game), which increased physical damage dealt by the target. Sure, you could write in something like, "Blah blah, void magic lets us reanimate corpses, blah," but consider why the devs haven't done that to start with: they respect the lore of the game even more than I do. Heck, FINAL FANTASY XI crossed a lot of lines, and even then black mages weren't capable of support.

Do you perhaps, have a compromise? An idea of some defensive utility to give Black Mage that won't be a break in the lore? Or perhaps, do you have any ideas how a raise-like skill could be given to Black Mage that wouldn't break its lore? GaitSpiff had some unique ideas in the last page.

No, because there is no compromise that can be made without breaking the lore. Black mages are strictly damage-dealers. They aren't doing enough damage partly because of how they're designed in this game. There is no chance in all the seven hells I'd ever support giving the black mage a Raise variant under any circumstances. You're better off giving them more DPS. Maybe strengthen Enochian and make it a trait instead of an ability to keep active or something. I don't know.

[LeeraSorlan]

snip

im not exactly trying to make a comeback as much as i am trying to say how stupid it is to make lore a reason. i do NOT want blackmage getting a raise, that being said, what other games made blackmage is irrelevant, the lore in this game is up to the devs, you say it doesnt work, but you are wrong, whatever the devs want blackmage to do is what black mage will do, end of story, its not about what BLM is or about what BLM did in past games, its about what the devs want the lore to be, if the devs wants the warrior of light to drop trousers and start living his or her life as a nudist throughout the storyline and made it canon that the warrior of light defeats foes through the use of steel asscheeks, then thats what the lore is going to be and theres not a thing you can do to argue against it, because it was the devs design, the same goes for BLM and anything else, the lore is not ours, it is the devs to create and change as they see fit

[Dualgunner]

No, because there is no compromise that can be made without breaking the lore. Black mages are strictly damage-dealers. They aren't doing enough damage partly because of how they're designed in this game. There is no chance in all the seven hells I'd ever support giving the black mage a Raise variant under any circumstances. You're better off giving them more DPS. Maybe strengthen Enochian and make it a trait instead of an ability to keep active or something. I don't know.

FFXIV has a precedent of Black Mages being able to do defensive support, however: manaward, manawall, and apocatastasis were all spells that FFXIV's Black Mage had. Perhaps I should be clear: when I say compromise, I do not solely mean with regards to raise: I mean, can you think of any other support ability they could bring in lieu of raise to support progression?

[Ceallach]

you say it doesnt work, but you are wrong, whatever the devs want blackmage to do is what black mage will do, end of story

Exactly, and the devs have stated they want the black mage to be pure damage. The devs also respect the lore of the series at least as much as I do, and giving the black mage any sort of Raise variant has already been proven to be an addition to their problems, not an aid. Get the hell off of your high horse.

FFXIV has a precedent of Black Mages being able to do defensive support, however: manaward, manawall, and apocatastasis were all spells that FFXIV's Black Mage had. Perhaps I should be clear: when I say compromise, I do not solely mean with regards to raise: I mean, can you think of any other support ability they could bring in lieu of raise to support progression?

To be fair, Apocatastasis was the only real support ability there. Manawall and Manaward supported only the black mage himself/herself, so they're more "support myself to do more damage" than "support someone else," the latter of which is what I refer to when I talk about support abilities at all.

The only real problem with the black mage job right now is its DPS. From what I've seen, the major problems with keeping up DPS are Enochian and movement. Sure, there's Transpose, but that's really just for downtime, and it only gives you one stack. If you're good, you should be able to keep up Astral Fire/Umbral Ice just fine during combat, so just using Enochian upon uptime restarting should be fine there.

That leaves movement, which is the real problem. The current raids are just not very friendly to turret-like jobs. Either the black mage needs to know the fight really well and move accordingly (which is why you take a black mage into prog parties), or the black mage needs more ways to move without interrupting the rotation. Part of this is already solved with Triplecast and Swiftcast, but not entirely. There's also the problem of potencies just straight-up not being high enough.

This gives us a few options. We could strengthen Enochian. We could strengthen the potency multiplier from Astral Fire and maybe give a bit to Umbral Ice for their aligned spells. We could increase the chance for Thundercloud and/or Firestarter. We could make Firestarter work with Fire IV.

Personally, my favorite idea is that we could give the black mage FINAL FANTASY XI's Burn and Frost spells, which were damage over time spells that came with an attribute debuff, and rework them. Let's say Burn does fire damage over time and makes the target more vulnerable to astral elements, so things like Dragonfire Dive and Verthunder do more damage, while Frost is the same, but umbral, supporting things like Stone IV and Wind Blade. Maybe then elements would actually matter. We make these cast instantly, but somewhat expensive so they are part of the rotation, but you can't afford to spam them. You'd have to clip them, like the good bards and summoners clip their damage over time debuffs: at the last minute. As far as how they'd work with Astral Fire and Umbral Ice, probably the traditional +1 stack like the low-level spells, but a potency buff on them instead if you're at 3 stacks already, perhaps? That way they become a utility for the black mage to help keep up Enochian during combat while moving, which you can't do with Fire or Blizzard without an ability like Swiftcast.