Jobs growth past lvl70?!

[Kohdo]

They'll cut down some of the abilities next expansion like they did when SB was released.

[Mikey_R]

Monks forms aren't the same as the stances you are describing, what would be closer is the relationship between the fist stances (fire, wind and earth) and tackle mastery/shoulder tackle, in that, the effect of an ability is determined by the stance you are in, ie. potency increase in fire, double use in wind and knockback in earth. However, we all know tackle mastery is a terrible trait, but it is closer to what you were suggesting, based on the idea you had for healers.

This then bring in my next point, so far, you've only given examples for healers, however, the challenge I would say lies more in the DPS classes and to a lesser extent tanks. So, lets talk about DPS.

Say 2 stances, one with is a straight +X% damage increase and the other a +Y% SS increase. Mathematically, one is going to be better than the other, so it will be the desired stance to maximise DPS. You could lock a strong ability behind a stance, but that means you would switch to the stance, use the ability and switch right back. If you have a cooldown, assuming it isn't too long, then they will switch back at the first opportunity, make it too long and then the benefits of using the stronger ability will diminish and in the end, make it not worth the effort.

On a different line of thinking, of you have to rotate through your stances due to either cooldowns preventing quick changing, or a timer on the stances, then you are effectively mimicking Bard's playstyle in rotating around the 3 songs and each song has a different effect which changes something about Bard, and as fun as Bard is in the expansion, I don't want every DPS to play the same as it will be the same thing, just with a different flavour.

If there is something I am not considering here, then let me know. I will admit, I'm not the best at coming up with ideas, however, I fail to see how it can be a benefit.

As for tanks, it's basically going to end in a tank stance and a DPS stance, which is what we have now. I know you said you didn't like the idea, but how can it be different?

[kikix12]

Monks forms aren't the same as the stances you are describing(...)

I have not mentioned monk in the part that described these stances. I did so in a different part, where I was mentioning a type of stance ability that switches it as an additional effect, just like how monks abilities do.

For example, let's take a melee DPS, a samurai-like job, and a few skills.
1) Strike a foe with a potency of 300. If used in Sheathed stance, this attack is a critical and switch to Double-Handed stance.
2) Strike all foes in a cone in front of you with a potency of 150. If used in Double-Handed stance, add damage over time with 50 potency and duration of 9sec to them and switch to Sheathed stance.
3) Strike a foe with a potency of 200 with an increased chance of critical hit in Sheathed stance. Strike all opponents in a straight line in front of you with a potency of 120 if used in Double-handed stance.
4) Increase critical hit chance for 10sec if used in Sheathed stance. Increase your damage for 10sec if used in Double-Handed stance.
5) Rush to target and deal damage with a potency of 300 if used in Sheathed stance. Deal damage with a potency of 300 and knock the target back by 10yards if used in Double-Handed stance.
6) If in Sheathed stance, deal damage with potency of 300 and double the damage on a critical hit, then change stance to Double-Handed. If in Double-Handed stance, distribute damage with a potency of 400 among all enemies withing 5 yalms of the target, dealing full damage on enemy on direct hit, then change stance to Sheathed.

Sheathed stance could increase critical hit chance, while double-handed stance would increase raw damage.

This switching on an attack, instead of using a stance-switcher skill, is what I mentioned as similar. Except for monk, they have a fixed order and they switch with every skill in the cycle, while here you could avoid using those skills until whatever time you wanted.

This then bring in my next point, so far, you've only given examples for healers, however, the challenge I would say lies more in the DPS classes and to a lesser extent tanks. So, lets talk about DPS.

Challenge no different than designing a bunch of new skills that don't seem like carbon copies of something else with a different name. With or without stances, that challenge is the same. And I simply didn't want to put effort into a "proof of concept" example when it had zero meaning. You don't make a model of a house to build on a 1/1 scale using normal materials. That's not a model, that's the actual building.

Say 2 stances, one with is a straight +X% damage increase and the other a +Y% SS increase. Mathematically, one is going to be better than the other, so it will be the desired stance to maximise DPS. You could lock a strong ability behind a stance, but that means you would switch to the stance, use the ability and switch right back.

And?! That's quite exactly what I wanted. Stances that you would switch in-battle semi-frequently to use various abilities and short-term take advantage of their bonuses. For example, a raw damage could be better mathematically normally over time, but could be inferior when you want to stack some DoT's sooner before the heavy hitters. And I'm not a fan of long cooldowns, thank you very much. I like them short, so that they can be used no less than once a battle.

There is nothing wrong with stance-switching. Quite the opposite. That's exactly what would be expected of any decent player. It's exactly how the tanks have a DPS combo which is strictly superior...except when you need to get that enmity. There are countless skills that fight for their slot in the rotation, and that's as normal as it is fine.

On a different line of thinking, of you have to rotate through your stances due to either cooldowns preventing quick changing, or a timer on the stances, then you are effectively mimicking Bard's playstyle in rotating around the 3 songs and each song has a different effect which changes something about Bard, and as fun as Bard is in the expansion, I don't want every DPS to play the same as it will be the same thing, just with a different flavour.

I intended the stances to be freely switched, so abilities (not weaponskills/spells) with extremely short cooldowns, most likely 3sec. So yes, you could switch after just about any global cooldown ability if that strikes your fancy.

If there is something I am not considering here, then let me know. I will admit, I'm not the best at coming up with ideas, however, I fail to see how it can be a benefit.

The benefit is very simple. A lot of button bloat is spared while still giving a variety of new skills. As far as this "idea" is concerned, the stances could have zero innate perks, only lock or unlock skills, and they still would do their job. Minimize the amount of buttons needed for X skills.

As for tanks, it's basically going to end in a tank stance and a DPS stance, which is what we have now. I know you said you didn't like the idea, but how can it be different?

In the first place, these stances could be on top of the stances we have now. It's not like there's a limit of that. It's just the developers will or lack of it. Second, tanks need to do DPS in all stances. Tanks could use skill speed in all stances. Developers could also focus on one or the other and give two stances focused around that. Want to focus on DPS?! Increased critical and increased damage stances. Want to focus on tanking? Increased effect of parry (let's say +10% damage mitigation on parry) or increased block chance (with no change to mitigation). And that on top of the stances they have.

[Sylvina]

They'll cut down some of the abilities next expansion like they did when SB was released.

They cant do that forever, already many classes feel clunky to level becuase of the LACK of skills before level 30.

[Vexander]

They cant do that forever, already many classes feel clunky to level becuase of the LACK of skills before level 30.

I imagine we'll get a lot more traits going forward. Either they'll modify existing abilities like Jolt/Jolt II, or they'll provide other benefits in general, like a movement speed increase when not in combat or something.

[Mikey_R]

The benefit is very simple. A lot of button bloat is spared while still giving a variety of new skills. As far as this "idea" is concerned, the stances could have zero innate perks, only lock or unlock skills, and they still would do their job. Minimize the amount of buttons needed for X skills.

Snipping straight to this, you seem to have missed the point with the switching for the one ability to just switch back straight after. Using one ability, to use another ability, then go back is, in my eyes, a form of button bloat. The only reason that switch is there is for the sake of it, get rid of it, and you can free up 1/2 buttons, which minimises the bloat you are trying to solve. It is also a way that can make jobs more complex, as you need to switch for that ability to get the most damage, however, SE wants to make the jobs easier to play, so that they are more intuitive. Switching stances to use one ability, just to switch back after is not intuitive and it isn't following the design philosophy they are after.



As for your tank comment, you basically want to add stances for the sake of adding stances, which tanks already have, they don't need more. However, what you have posted is exactly what I suspected you would go with, an additional offensive or defensive stance ontop of what we already have, at which point I will say, what's the point? That is adding buttons for the sake of adding buttons, which is button bloat. Also, since you want short cooldowns to switch on the fly, make the defensive stance too strong, and it replaces your cooldowns, make it too weak, and it's pointless to use. Finding that middle ground would be insanely tricky.

And one final thing, you listed some abilities for, what I assume would be a Katana user and switching between sheathed and double handed, trying to mimic something akin to monk. However, you seem to have missed the point in how monks abilities rotate and why they are all used. Each form has 2 options for single target, a buff/debuff option and a damage option. It's this distinction that means, as a monk, you use all the abilities, however, in your example they are all damage, except one that looks like a buff, which would be oGCD and one has a very weak DoT. Now, I understand you haven't taken the time to balance everything, but since the only reason to use the abilities is the damage, then I can easily make a combo of 2 abilities (assuming they are on the GCD) which would be the highest damage potential. The weakness I see in that is the fact ALL abilities switch stance in that list. You need 1 or 2 abilities which switch stances, the rest are either buffs or damage that don't switch it. AKA, use one to get into sheathed, use another to do crit rate, then one for SS, (both without switching stances), then use one to switch stance to double hand, where you use your damaging attacks, where you start again and repeat. So that downfall is too many abilities switching. The other is double handed seems to be focused on AoE while sheathed seems single target, however, you are forced between them.

So basically, cut down the switching and essentially have a buff phase and a damage phase, switching between the 2 once you finish your abilities there. So basically, designed a new job idea right there, barebones, but the basis is there.

[odintius]

For example, for a White Mage, one could have "Wind Stance" which increases casting speed and gives access to an instant, but comparably weak, targeted AoE heal (a weaker but wider and instant Cure III) and an AoE Esuna with a cooldown, and a "Water Stance" which increases healing done by some amount (dependent on speed cast increase), and offers a more powerful single target heal with a cast time and cooldown (short'ish, 20-30sec), that adds a short regeneration effect to it, and a "preemptive esuna" that prevents the next debuff or two that can be healed from being applied on target.

As long as it not like cleric stance before the change doing pug groups and thinking your good to go for some dps and Bam someone takes a big hit that's usually which is dodgeable that 3 sec cool down your staring at feels like a enternity to turn it off....

[kikix12]

Snipping straight to this, you seem to have missed the point with the switching for the one ability to just switch back straight after.

You should pay way more attention when reading. I know that my posts are quite a long read, but that doesn't mean that you can skip third of them and respond and "get on point".

And?! That's quite exactly what I wanted. Stances that you would switch in-battle semi-frequently to use various abilities and short-term take advantage of their bonuses. (...)
There is nothing wrong with stance-switching. Quite the opposite. That's exactly what would be expected of any decent player. (...)
I intended the stances to be freely switched, (...). So yes, you could switch after just about any global cooldown ability if that strikes your fancy.

Using one ability, to use another ability, then go back is, in my eyes, a form of button bloat. The only reason that switch is there is for the sake of it, get rid of it, and you can free up 1/2 buttons, which minimises the bloat you are trying to solve.

You seriously should read more carefully. In every example I gave, there were twice as many abilities as there were buttons. Six buttons gave twelve abilities. How is that button bloat?! If we went with this kind of mechanism for ALL the skills in the game, then you would need literally one hot bar for most classes. And you're telling me that is button bloat?!
One would need to be an idiot to tie only a single skill to a stance-switching mechanic that is made for the sake of switching available skills. I've got a bit more of ability at math than that, though.

It is also a way that can make jobs more complex, as you need to switch for that ability to get the most damage, however, SE wants to make the jobs easier to play, so that they are more intuitive.

Everything comes with a price. Also, this is ALREADY PRESENT in warrior. Seriously. Warriors already do that, except for the fact that they don't get anything if they're not in stance. They get one set of abilities in Defiance and one in Deliverance. And they share a button. So...yeah...

As for your tank comment, you basically want to add stances for the sake of adding stances, which tanks already have, they don't need more.

Eh...no. I want to add stances for the sake of lowering button bloat...

And one final thing, you listed some abilities for, what I assume would be a Katana user and switching between sheathed and double handed, trying to mimic something akin to monk. However, you seem to have missed the point in how monks abilities rotate and why they are all used. Each form has 2 options for single target, a buff/debuff option and a damage option.

Um...
1) Its a proof of concept example, not a suggestion to add. Again, why would I build a house when I just want to build a model of one.
2) I don't want to build a second monk...One is enough...
3) I gave the differences myself, so I don't really know why you act as if I assumed it's a carbon copy of monk. Except, if you didn't pay attention when reading of course...

The weakness I see in that is the fact ALL abilities switch stance in that list.

There are two abilities which switch stance if you are in specific one, then one ability that switches stance, period. The remaining three don't switch stances. You really should pay closer attention when reading.
And again, don't misunderstand the point of the examples. They are meant to show how the suggestion works, not some fancy skills or whatever that I suggest being implemented. They are just simple, first-come-to-mind stuff that I just typed since it's a bit more friendly than writing "Attack A. Switch stance to 2.", "Attack B. Switch stance to 1.", "Attack C. Only usable in stance 2." and so on.

[Silver-Strider]

I suggested something very similar to this with MNK and their Fist Stances being more involved in what abilities they could use and it came up mostly negative responses. It was a bit more extreme in that it effected all of MNK's toolkit, changing GCD and oGCD alike, however, it would be pretty simple to handle with MNK.

Fist of Earth - AoE combo (AotD, One Ilm Punch, Rockbreaker).
Fist of Wind - Buff combo (Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Demolish)
Fist of Fire - Damage combo (Bootshine, True Strike, Snap Punch)

Have all stances grant the 5% bonus FoF currently grants and you've got a solid baseline to continue advancing the class from there.

As for the other classes, it might be more difficult but the potential is there.

[Mikey_R]

If you want me to address everything, then try and see the point I was trying to make. My post was meant to be taken as a whole, not have individual sentences snipped out and responding to that. So, to make my point clearer:

Stance A is stronger than Stance B for your general GCD rotation. However, Stance B has an oGCD that that stronger than Stance A's version. So, before using that ability you switch to Stance B, use the ability, then switch back to Stance A. However, this applies to 1 or 2 abilities from your whole kit, the majority are done in Stance A, with the odd switch to stance B, just for those 2 abilities. I then ask, what is the point in the other half of the abilities in the first place, if you never use them, that's where the stance button bloat comes from in that regard.

You could then move on to say Stance A is single target and Stance B is AoE, but then you are using the same attacks, in the same rotation for both single target and AoE situations, and I don't know about you, but I would prefer doing something different in AoE rather than see the same abilities used for both. Yes, you can switch the abilities around, like Fell Cleave and Inner Beast, but at the end of the day, you still won't be switching abilities mid fight like you intended, because it'll be either single target, or AoE.

So far, you have not said anything that justifies having the stance option in the first place in regards to my first point, as all you come back with is more skills = good, whilst ignoring the fact that half of them are useless, and so pointless to have.

In regards to your idea, I will admit, I did misread what you put, however, It actually still doesn't change the rotation I had in my head, which would average out at 425 potency per GCD, which is far above anything else you had there. Also, I was not asking you to build a house. You are the one that started laying the foundations by adding potency to your ideas. Instead, take the approach I took, lay out a blueprint on how you think it could play, with your stances involved. In my example, I added no potencies, but layed out a basic idea for a rotation. Switch to this stance, buff up, switch to another, do the damage, and no, my idea isn't the same as monk, but it does take inspiration. You switch to 1 stance, they apply buffs, but these, say, 3 abilities aren't tied to a combo, so you can do them in any order, you can then switch to the other stance, the abilities change to the damaging abilities, and again, you can do them in any order. However, they can't all just be damaging abilities, otherwise you would spam the 1 ability, assuming there is 3, you can have 1 DoT, then you have 2 more, if they have different potencies, I would always choose the stronger one, unless there was an incentive to use them both. Which you can then draw inspiration from Samurai, each of the damaging GCDs adds a unique resource, which you then expend on a big attack (and just to be clear, every melee job has that one ability you are trying to build up resources to use, it's just that the Samurai best fits this examlpe).

So, we have a system which takes inspiration from Monk, adds a bit of Samurai and even isn't restricted by the combo system, which would be a new thing for a melee class. Something like this is what I was after, I added no potencies, no buffs, just a rough idea of what I wanted it to do, and how it does it, trying to also think of ways to ensure one thing isn't stronger than something else, which would make that something else redundant. This job was obviously made with the stance idea in mind, however, you cannot then force the stances onto existing jobs, because chances are, it won't work, you can even see that in the gauges we have, where some of them are just there (Monk's is only there for tracking GL and Meditation stacks) and some are just tacked on (WHM lily system). Noone likes adding something if it adds nothing of value, which is why I keep trying to point out, if you have an ability that switches, and out of 2 or 3 options, most are useless, then what is the point, its just there for the sake of being there.