Red Mage could use some help.

[SwarleyMcSwarls]

Red Mage has a spot in all content at the moment. The only place it is pushed out is when pushing dps is the absolute goal of a group (like in speed kill groups). The ease of execution of the kit as well as its amazing raise utility make it a perfect progression job. And its personal damage is not so underpowered that it is a hindrance to groups in any sort of content. I will admit that there are balancing issues in the game for 8 man content, but damage utility and personal damage output are not the only factors for a job's utility. They are just the easiest and most tangible metric to look at. So yes, red mage is a little behind some jobs in personal damage and damage utility, but pointing out that it's a few percent damage behind other utility jobs isn't taking in the whole picture. Plus, it's only a few hundred damage behind black mage in every savage fight. And black mage contributes no unique utility to a party.

[Dualgunner]

Red Mage has a spot in all content at the moment.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/19#aggregate=amount&dataset=100

Not really looking at the damage per second, but parse totals.

11 summoners have killed Ultimate. Compared to 1 Red Mage, and 0 Black Mages. Worth mentioning at least, I feel.

The only place it is pushed out is when pushing dps in speed kill groups. The ease of execution of the kit as well as its amazing raise utility make it a perfect progression job. And its personal damage is not so underpowered that it is a hindrance to groups in any sort of content.

It's viable. And if the only desire for it is for progression, that's a stupid way to balance a job. Again it's worth noting that RDM has one...ONE clear in Ultimate, versus SMN's 11. Even in ultimate, RDM is only taken to learn the fight and replaced with summoner who brings not only raise, but more damage than Black Mage.

I will admit that there are balancing issues in the game for 8 man content, but damage utility and personal damage output are not the only factors for a job's utility.

Take verraise away. It's a stupid utility, and it's a stupid thing to balance a job around.

They are just the easiest and most tangible metric to look at. So yes, red mage is a little behind some jobs in personal damage

A little? Some? We're bottom rung if not fighting BRD for bottom rung in every fight. The only RDM to clear Ultimate did beat the 12 ninjas who cleared, so there's that I guess.

and damage utility, but pointing out that it's a few percent damage behind other utility jobs isn't taking in the whole picture.

What's the rest of the picture I need to take in? Once nobody is dying, verraise is meaningless.

Plus, it's only a few hundred damage behind black mage in every savage fight. And black mage contributes no unique utility to a party.

Black Mage needs a buff: it needs to surpass SMN and MNK.

Red Mage, with only embolden, is at or around bard, if not less in most fights.

[zuzu-bq]

While I agree RDM could use a buff, at the moment they fill a very unique niche that is some groups request and will be needed and wanted because of that. It's not a bad spot to fill a specific thing that people like you for while having low raid damage contribuition. WHM is most likely on the same boat.

What I'm saying is more in the likes of: a RDM buff would be nice, but it's not bad in its current state, there are other DPS jobs with more issues right now.

[Claire_Pendragon]

While I can agree RDM is on the lower end, I honestly still see nothing really wrong with it.
I may not be the best RDM, as I think im only like 89% on fflogs for RDM on O1S (granted i dont use potions or good food, but still, the difference added would be minimal), and then go down from there in the harder fights, but my "bad support" and "bad dps" have never really been an issue, due to content not being like midas. (in which case, then id say RDM needs help)
But I see other jobs in worse condition, and SE says "they are fine" so I doubt there's ever going to be any thought into changes to RDM, other than to make it less fun.

[SwarleyMcSwarls]

If you don't want a job with defensive utility in a raise then why are you playing red mage? You're just being salty and only proving a point to yourself with your comments. That's not how you have a productive conversation.

[Cynfael]

If you don't want a job with defensive utility in a raise then why are you playing red mage? You're just being salty and only proving a point to yourself with your comments. That's not how you have a productive conversation.

Unfortunately, defensive DPS is not a fully viable identity in this game. Balancing RDM’s damage around its brand of utility (which is either awesome or useless depending on your party’s needs) is a problem.

RDM is peculiar in that it can be the clutch save MVP for one party and the friend no one likes in the next one. Aside from Embolden, which is fairly weak, they bring no unique and notable utility to a party that needs neither backseat heals nor rez spam.

[Dualgunner]

If you don't want a job with defensive utility in a raise then why are you playing red mage? You're just being salty and only proving a point to yourself with your comments. That's not how you have a productive conversation.

Because I like the aesthetic of the job. If I wanted a job with high defensive utility, why wouldn't I be a tank? If I wanted a job with high restorative capability, why wouldn't I play healer?

I love the archetype of slinging spells alongside swordplay. At the moment, RDM is the only job that provides that.

EDIT: And yes, I feel justified in my salt that my job has become the equivalent of training wheels as far as balance is concerned. Used to learn, then dropped in favor of stronger jobs once the learning's done.

[Silver-Strider]

Word of warning, I am NOT a RDM (honestly find the job to be as dull as dirt) but I figure I'd throw out some randon idea that popped in my head to see if it would go anywhere.

Verholy - Reduces damage enemy deals by 5% for 10 seconds
Verflare - Increases magic vulnerability of enemy by 5% for 10 seconds

I'm aware this would make Verholy hardly ever used again since the whole "More Damage" mentality is pretty much always the way to go but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me could find a reason to justify Verholy and it's damage reduction use. If nothing else, it would give RDM more damage regardless.

[Llugen]

Didn’t read the thread but what RDM needs is +magic damage on Embolden and honestly that’s about it. Possibly consider removing the diminishing buff time.

RDM should absolutely be the weakest caster and the best support, so fixing its support should suffice. The biggest issue with RDM is that they overbuffed SMN.

[JohnnyDevo]

If you don't want a job with defensive utility in a raise then why are you playing red mage? You're just being salty and only proving a point to yourself with your comments. That's not how you have a productive conversation.

The argument is that the problem with rdm's utility is that most of it might as well not exist.

To do the tired comparison, pair it with bard. Rdm has VerRaise, VerCure, Embolden. Bard has crit buff on song, Battle Voice, The Warden's Paean, Troubador, and Nature's Minne. Now, I'm not going to go into the intricacies of the comparisons here, but I will point out two things. 1) bard brings a greater volume of utility to the table. 2) It does not actively hurt the bard to use any of this utility.

Red mage does not like to use vercure as utility(vercure is actually technically a minor dps gain in most fights). Trading at least 240 potency for a weak cure is bad, since the healers can use their GCD to heal much more effeciently at a much lesser trade-off of dps. Which means one thing: If you're put into a situation where you need to vercure in order to clear, the party is massively failing the content. Utility that depends on your party not doing their job should not be weighed in the balance of the class. By the same token, verraise has the same issue. it costs 300 potency for something the healer would lose less damage to do, and is something that only becomes useful when the party is failing. ... Which leaves us with embolden. Exactly embolden, which amounts to being an average 6% buff to damage that doesn't even affect all of the damage that the red mage himself deals, while also not benefitting the type of caster composition that would help a red mage out.

So I ask this: Why should red mage, which has less utility than 5 of the 8 other DPS classes, deal the least damage out of all of them? If VerRaise is being used as a justification for this low damage, get rid of it as it is now, because in any content that matters where you need more than 3 rezzes, the pull is doomed to fail anyway.