Dev Team, show me you care about your players because I just don't see it (long read)

[Duuude007]

The original idea(?) from the original dev team is basically being tossed out the window. So whatever you thought about XIV then will be forever changed by Yoshi-P and the new dev team.

Only partly. Even character creation shows CNJ's Creation versus THM's Destruction backgrounds. There is plenty of ingame data out there that implies they had future plans in line with this.

[Seirra_Lanzce]

Only partly. Even character creation shows CNJ's Creation versus THM's Destruction backgrounds. There is plenty of ingame data out there that implies they had future plans in line with this.

Nah not really, the vision before Yoshi is plainly different that what Yoshi is doing. :|

[Duuude007]

I meant in regards to the fact that the class descriptions in character creation, as of now (and ever since launch), actually suits the jobs they are getting assigned. That part is still very much alive.

[Silvano]

I fyou take into consideration the fact that All classes will only have 15 Skills, it is more than likely Conjurers will not have elemental magic anymore.

Actually, in another interview, Yoshi-P mentioned how there needed to be a crowd control caster, for skills like paralyna, silena, etc. So those will probably get the boot

And the fact that Yoshi-P also said that the fundamentals of the characters would not be changed, and if you read all the Conjurer lore, the elemental spells will show up in some form with Conjurer.

[Duuude007]

...the elemental spells will show up in some form with Conjurer.

You mean like wind cure vs wind potions? lol

[Rhomagus]

I don't necessarily agree with the thread topic. I think Naoki Yoshida has the players in mind. I was worried that the whole OP was going to be a nag fest but then I read it and parts of it do resonate with my own opinion.

I remember feeling relieved when Yoshida stated that the general difference between classes and jobs would be that jobs would be a sort of group specialist while a class would be geared more towards solo play. At the time of this announcement I thought, "Great, they won't touch classes now and they'll just amplify what the roles each class would undertake in a well balanced full party situation."

Up until the announcement of the class revisions coming in 1.20 I thought this was going to be the case.

It seemed like Yoshida was interested in creating some kind of balance between personal/class identity but 1.19 and the announcements in 1.20 throw that out the window.

The only thing that separates you from others are purely aesthetic and some of those have been done away with (like optimal level gear). You used to be able to build your character to cater to your style of play. Now you have to build your character within a style of play, but your character is just another character within that style. I liked the idea of a mage tank. Like the creative utilization RDM/PLD in XI. I didn't like how OP'd THM was in the beginning of the game but I don't consider a mage being able to tank OP'd, especially if it's situational. I think there's too much "A mage can't do this!" mentality in both the community and the dev team. Relegating one or two jobs to the definitive tank role is just going to make it all that much more difficult to form balanced groups, as it was in XI. While a majority of this has to do with player opinion, I don't think there should ever be just one "tank" or just one "healer" but rather, multiple facets of "tanking" and "healing" that are done more efficiently by certain jobs. I fear the coming system is pigeon holing people too much into class identity without giving enough leeway for personal identity in terms of playstyle (and even more in gear choice). Barring CNJ and THM (Classes not Jobs) from the shield abilities further limits personal identity. I wouldn't have a problem if WHM and BLM were barred from such abilities but I don't see why CNJ and THM have to be if classes are supposed to be "solo specialist" as opposed to the jobs "party specialist".

With the affinity guildmark abilities you could enhance your current class with abilities and equal effectiveness of the other classes after amassing a great deal of marks from said class. This made your particular character unique from a strategic point of view. If this ability was still relegated to classes only then I'd be fine with it but they've become class only traits. I say make them "job" only traits when you are your job and then when we are playing as our class, let us play in the strategic sandbox.

I liked the guildmark system. It was like merits in XI but started from day one instead of after you hit cap. I liked the optimal rank system (I didn't like the lack of verifiable information displayed), I liked putting abilities together from the different classes that I've leveled because that made it worthwhile to level other classes while adding to my characters total "knowledge pool". I liked being able to wear robes and and a sword at the same time giving the air some what of a wise swordsman. I can only do that if I've kept the old dated gear.

I saw Doctor Mog's post about "not setting abilities" on your bar and I agree with that too. I don't think classes should be directed. I think classes should be relegated to solo play and that we should be able to truly build our characters in the way that we choose as well as the visual display of our UI, and character appearance. We still don't have a fully adjustable UI more than a year later. I still have never used the moonphase widget and could do without the mini map if I didn't want it to be there. Instead of letting us mold our characters (and playstyle and play environment) we're directed (a bit too strongly in my opinion) to grow our characters into a defined path. I agree with this mentality from a "jobs" standpoint but not from a solo "class" standpoint.

Again, when he announced how jobs would contrast, I thought that it was an awesome concept. Jobs, born out of classes, enhancing the "essence" of those classes to be utilized in a party situation. This gave ample class identification while still retaining personal identification and playstyle. It seems that 1.20 is the umpteenth step in demolishing personal identity from a solo perspective.

To reiterate, I'm all for an enhanced "job" system. I'm against the nerfed "class" system that we're being directed into, nor am I for the continued pushing aside of personal identity for solo situations. From a solo perspective I just see no purpose in it.

[Silvano]

You mean like wind cure vs wind potions? lol

I am glad you decided to voice your opinion, and I'm sure your input will be of great value to someone.

kthxbai

[Neptune]

I already said this, but of course I'm not surprised to see disagreement about what customer service is. The dev team can look at my post history: they know I appreciate this game, that I'm a big fan of a lot of it, and it's obvious that they listen to player feedback. These very boards are evidence of that. I feel like I need to explain customer service to the people on this board who seem to lack an understanding of it.

When Apple released the iPhone 4, Consumer Reports gave it a big F.U. because it had weak reception and dropped calls. For about 2 weeks news broke of how terrible the reception was on this phone in areas of weak reception. One guy made a video called "If you don't like the iPhone 4 don't buy it" and Steve Jobs, being the smartass that he was, showed it at the start of their media conference to address the issues. The thing is, people loved the iPhone 4 and they didn't want to return it, they just wanted it to work like a goddamned phone should work. So what is customer service? Apple knew they shipped a product with a flaw, and they didn't make everybody happy. So they put out a program that let anyone obtain a free case for the phone that cut down on the reception issue. It wasn't a replacement phone but it was customer service. Apple has fanboys too and there were probably people saying Apple still cares about its customers etc etc etc but for 2 weeks no one knew what was going on until they came through in the end.

Right now in this game if you leveled a mage at launch you've been getting burned harder and harder with every patch and announcement. I think I've been getting burned the hardest because at launch I leveled the closest thing to Black Mage that could solo. So I've always used advanced tactics, shield, and nukes, to solo. And now you can't solo, you can't be a black mage, you can't use a shield, and you can't solo. Among those who are also affected are those that leveled Thaumaturge for healing, Conjurer for attacks, and other soloers. Many of them already quit the game a long time ago but I think they'll be back. And wouldn't it be nice if when they came back, they found not only were their classes unrecognizable, but they had options to readjust their characters? What do any of you have to gain by limiting what options people have? Not everyone is a fanboy nor is everyone going to level every class in the game, or even every other class that their playstyle changed to all of a sudden.

I say if the dev team wants to change something so be it. More power to the game, but if you mess with someone's character give them some options. Is that so bad to all you fanboys?

You first claim that you've made multiple posts about how the game should be designed with 97% of the players in mind who quit after the first few weeks. Then you go on and stated again that you believe the game "should appeal to the masses" and say how you started at launch as a CNJ because of <insert assumptions here>. Then you complain about how the constant changing of the game does not fall under your original assumptions and is affecting "your" playstyle, abilities, tactics, fun, experience, and least of all but most relevant, effort.

See the correlation there? I guess your college didn't teach you how to word yourself if you are really not trying to say your opinions speak for the majority.

You are assuming your complaints about the changes made by SE does NOT fall into your original assumptions, and since you've made a series of post regarding the well beings and enjoyment of the majority, you are also making another post based on the same principle. See the correlation?

If you are NOT assuming your opinions equal the majority as you claimed, then the first 2 paragraphs of your post is completely irrelevant, since what you are trying to say really has nothing to do with the majority of the players in game or quit in the first few weeks, but merely about yourself as a FFXIV player and how the changes made by SE made you feel unhappy.

Ok let me get this straight you think that since I posted about the (absent) majority, then 6 months later, posted about the changes to classes, that automatically makes it the majority's opinion? Is that really what you're asking me?

You sound like someone that likes to argue. You just asked me if I assumed my complaints fell into my original assumptions. That really doesn't make any sense. The only assumptions I remember ever making about this game is that it would probably be terrible at launch (true), that it would would take 2 years to fix (true), it would be harder to solo with quadruple MP costs (true), and that I would be a de facto healer after Thaumaturge lost aoe healing (true). Other than that I really don't make any assumptions. So no I don't see why you're even bringing a correlation up. Maybe you weren't expressing yourself well. Try again.

The last part of your post is the only thing that made sense to me. You didn't understand why I started my OP out the way I did. I started it out that way because my OP puts me in the 3% (probably close now to 1%) of people that still play. That's contrasted with my earlier posts about the 97% who quit. In other words, I was bringing up my reputation to show that I am not someone who ever posts trying to base the game off the 3% playerbase.

They already said that the shield skills will be moved to GLA. They also said numerous times that all classes are undergoing reforms. They will be giving out the skillsets in advance to allow for feedback before 1.20.

You on the other hand, Neptune, are whining as always due to a lack of foresight based on their announcements. The removal of the Sentinel class comes along major reforms that nobody can predict right now. You are crying about an upcoming change based on how skills are now. Heck, you don't even know if Aegis Boon will even exist anymore, yet you're upset because apparently the shield class being removed is what you think is taking away that skill.

What you're saying is not fact in the slightest. You are upset over not getting a level of customer service you, yourself, feel entitled to. This is an opinion at best.

I appreciate their advance notices and the degree to which they consider player feedback. A+ to customer service from me.

You are missing the point. I am not the type of person to try to predict what is going to happen to this game so I can base how I play off that. Does that surprise you? Many others are the same. It's fine if you like the game enough to do that, but I think it's a little harsh to judge others for not doing so.

As for Aegis Boon 2 or any other shield skill; I don't care about the fate of the skills. Customer service isn't about what you change, it's about what you do if your changes negatively impact someone. Can you argue with that?

You have one rank 50 (CON), a 43 THM, and a 39 GLD for DoM/W. How can you even complain that you're being robbed?

I'm not saying I've been robbed, but it's not about what classes I have ranked up. Actually, I have the 3 main classes ranked up that have to do with how bad I've been burned, good for me. I can be Black Mage and I can have shield skill, although it may or may not be equippable in 1.20. It's not about that. It's not about how lucky you are or how unlucky you are or what you have ranked up or what you haven't got ranked up. It's about how you handle changes that impact your players. So far the dev team hasn't announced anything about people who don't like the changes to mages. I'm still listening.

I would really like to know what you are calling good customer service...

It's simple. Take the temperature and then respond accordingly. If you want to change the mages up, change the classes up, or something even more extreme, go right on ahead, but then figure out what people would accept to make up for the dose of identity or role change. I think if they want to change people's characters in a meaningful way that's fine but they need to offer options to those players who don't like the results. Just like the new graphical engine being implemented: they're giving the option to redo your character's race. That's all I'm saying.

Effort? What effort? You leveled an off-class along with your conjurer. That's not effort. If you want effort equal to what sentinel originally was, level gladiator (which is where the abilities are going).

You can get from 1-50 in about 15 hours or less now anyway so it doesn't matter regardless.

One, it did take some attention to get Sentinel to 50. I had to buy a series of shields, and use weaker wands instead of more powerful staves. I had to do the same on Thaumaturge since leveling Conjurer to 50 wasn't enough to get Shield to 50. And in return I gained the ability to solo. Hell I even tanked the skeletons in Darkhold during phase 3 with my shield. So don't say it wasn't any effort.

Second, it's not about how quick I can get around changes that negatively impact me by the dev team. It's nice to know what you can do, but what about people who don't care to do that? What about someone who comes back to check out 1.20? You think they give a damn about leveling up another class in 15 hours? No, they're going to peace out. It's not about me it's about the dev team. Many players feel jacked by changes to mages and Sentinel. Some are more forgiving than others, some are more optimistic, some more trusting, some more fanboyish, but that doesn't mean there aren't people who are unsatisfied, and it doesn't mean the dev team can't offer up a viable option before 1.20 is released or later if they want.

I read your whole post and I just am amazed that you feel cheated in anyway, i mean guess what you wanted to play a black mage well thau is going to be it level it and play and all these other post you hot linked and said how valuable is your opinion, and now my question to you is how valuable do you think you opinion actually is? I mean come on they're gonna appease all type of players and take suggestion from everyone yes but money is their goal they are a business so they don't care if you feel cheat when they abolish you shield skill or make a different class the class you wanted to play. This is Yoshi-p's work of art and he will continue to do whats he think is best and yes use some of the players idea to improve the game but he doesn't care if you feel cheated none the less cause he making vast improvement and many more people are enjoying the game. He can't make everyone happy bro so either a. enjoy the game and make post that could be fundamentally important to the game or b. stop playing man. Obviously you like it and you spent alot of time in this game so your probably not going anywhere.

Can you say p-p-period? lol. Anyway I read your whole post. I never said my opinion was valuable. That's not for me to say. Actually I disagree with you about whether or not they care. I think they are caring people but I don't see it. The point is that I don't see it. Show it to me. Give options to your players dev team.

He has been making threads like this since March. Don't think i have ever agreed with him.

Neptune, maybe you should wonder why almost all your of threads and posts go down this way?

Have you ever wondered why you don't agree with me?

No, it's definitely your problem. You are the one who has issue with it, despite the fact that they're giving us plenty of notice ahead of time. Your argument would be valid if those changes were announced in the 1.21 patch notes as it was going up. But considering the fact that we have time to plan accordingly now, in addition to the fact that leveling is not that hard these days, one should really find an actual constructive solution instead of bitching on the forums constantly. Your Thaum is at 43 anyway, you could hit 50 in a single stronghold group.

Once again we see the idea that I have time to put it my own time to solve my qualms. That's partially right, and as you saw I could hit 50 THM in one sitting. It's not about what I can do. I know what I can do. What I have an issue with is how the dev team is treating this class adjustment and players' characters. No amount of leveling on my part can get around that.

I think the game is getting really good tbh. I didnt like it up until now i welcome the changes and will continue to play from now on.

I agree it is getting better. These changes are making me wish I would have passed on this game until version 2.0. Then I could have just played whatever character was the Black Mage du jour and not worried about it.

You whine to much, just level glad for the shield abilities and stay on con instead of switching over to white mage, and then you can continue as you have been. Or you could just level black mage.



And I completely agree with this.

You're right that I could level whatever I want but it's not about that, it's about the dev team, and it's about doing something above and beyond for the existing players.

Compensation:
Something given or received as an equivalent for services, debt, loss, injury, suffering, lack, etc.;

Tell me again why you think you deserve compensation?

I have a loss to my character's progress. Not only me, but others who mostly don't post on this forum. Where there's a loss there should be something to make up for it. All we need are some options.

It's a changing game, right when I hit 50 GLA the patch came out which gimped Gladiators, shit happens

Class balance does happen but what we are talking about here goes beyond that.

I don't necessarily agree with the thread topic. I think Naoki Yoshida has the players in mind. I was worried that the whole OP was going to be a nag fest but then I read it and parts of it do resonate with my own opinion.

I remember feeling relieved when Yoshida stated that the general difference between classes and jobs would be that jobs would be a sort of group specialist while a class would be geared more towards solo play. At the time of this announcement I thought, "Great, they won't touch classes now and they'll just amplify what the roles each class would undertake in a well balanced full party situation."

Up until the announcement of the class revisions coming in 1.20 I thought this was going to be the case.

It seemed like Yoshida was interested in creating some kind of balance between personal/class identity but 1.19 and the announcements in 1.20 throw that out the window.

The only thing that separates you from others are purely aesthetic and some of those have been done away with (like optimal level gear). You used to be able to build your character to cater to your style of play. Now you have to build your character within a style of play, but your character is just another character within that style. I liked the idea of a mage tank. Like the creative utilization RDM/PLD in XI. I didn't like how OP'd THM was in the beginning of the game but I don't consider a mage being able to tank OP'd, especially if it's situational. I think there's too much "A mage can't do this!" mentality in both the community and the dev team. Relegating one or two jobs to the definitive tank role is just going to make it all that much more difficult to form balanced groups, as it was in XI. While a majority of this has to do with player opinion, I don't think there should ever be just one "tank" or just one "healer" but rather, multiple facets of "tanking" and "healing" that are done more efficiently by certain jobs. I fear the coming system is pigeon holing people too much into class identity without giving enough leeway for personal identity in terms of playstyle (and even more in gear choice). Barring CNJ and THM (Classes not Jobs) from the shield abilities further limits personal identity. I wouldn't have a problem if WHM and BLM were barred from such abilities but I don't see why CNJ and THM have to be if classes are supposed to be "solo specialist" as opposed to the jobs "party specialist".

With the affinity guildmark abilities you could enhance your current class with abilities and equal effectiveness of the other classes after amassing a great deal of marks from said class. This made your particular character unique from a strategic point of view. If this ability was still relegated to classes only then I'd be fine with it but they've become class only traits. I say make them "job" only traits when you are your job and then when we are playing as our class, let us play in the strategic sandbox.

I liked the guildmark system. It was like merits in XI but started from day one instead of after you hit cap. I liked the optimal rank system (I didn't like the lack of verifiable information displayed), I liked putting abilities together from the different classes that I've leveled because that made it worthwhile to level other classes while adding to my characters total "knowledge pool". I liked being able to wear robes and and a sword at the same time giving the air some what of a wise swordsman. I can only do that if I've kept the old dated gear.

I saw Doctor Mog's post about "not setting abilities" on your bar and I agree with that too. I don't think classes should be directed. I think classes should be relegated to solo play and that we should be able to truly build our characters in the way that we choose as well as the visual display of our UI, and character appearance. We still don't have a fully adjustable UI more than a year later. I still have never used the moonphase widget and could do without the mini map if I didn't want it to be there. Instead of letting us mold our characters (and playstyle and play environment) we're directed (a bit too strongly in my opinion) to grow our characters into a defined path. I agree with this mentality from a "jobs" standpoint but not from a solo "class" standpoint.

Again, when he announced how jobs would contrast, I thought that it was an awesome concept. Jobs, born out of classes, enhancing the "essence" of those classes to be utilized in a party situation. This gave ample class identification while still retaining personal identification and playstyle. It seems that 1.20 is the umpteenth step in demolishing personal identity from a solo perspective.

To reiterate, I'm all for an enhanced "job" system. I'm against the nerfed "class" system that we're being directed into, nor am I for the continued pushing aside of personal identity for solo situations. From a solo perspective I just see no purpose in it.

First of all, thanks for your post. You brought up a really interesting point. If jobs were such a big part of this game, why didn't they leave classes alone since everyone had lots of classes leveled and 0 jobs leveled? That's an example of taking a route that is going to cause some friction. But you know what, if friction is the price to pay for this being a good game at some point, so be it. But instead of screwing us over, why not screw us over and then give us an option to unscrew ourselves.

[Rhomagus]

First of all, thanks for your post. You brought up a really interesting point. If jobs were such a big part of this game, why didn't the leave classes alone since everyone had lots of classes leveled and 0 jobs leveled? That's an example of taking a route that is going to cause some friction. But you know what, if friction is the price to pay for this being a good game at some point, so be it. But instead of screwing us over, why not screw us over and then give us an option to unscrew ourselves.

You're welcome. I can't say I'm completely displeased with the changes thus far to Final Fantasy XIV but as a friend of mine had stated:

"This is the first patch I haven't been excited about at all."

At best we're getting a comparable party search feature that should have been implemented pre-beta, at worst we're losing out on our solo viability. Even Yoshida's design philosophy seems irreconcilable with 1.20. To me it seems uncharacteristic, but we'll see if it's made up in a different way somewhere down the road.

I remember there being a lot of excitement surrounding the release of XIV. I think a lot of that excitement had to do with some of the concepts that were implemented into Tanaka's version pre launch. Some people love the idea of the "Secret of Mana" style attack charging. I am one of those people but it was clear that it was way too slow to be viable in a final release, it didn't even live up to "Secret of Mana" standards of speed. Unfortunately, instead of tweaking that we got the button mashing stamina alternative. In the end those concepts were implemented very poorly if at all (Pugilist defensive stance *light strike is a poor alternative, completely adjustable UI to name a few)

I still think it's a bit too early to say but the writing on the wall doesn't look promising (only from my opinion's standpoint, not from the total success of the game). I've been wrong before and 1.18's auto attack wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting it to be. I'd prefer they stop nerfing classes soloability, give us the sandbox back, and focus on making Jobs the de facto party alternative to quell the wants and needs of the Final Fantasy hardcore fan. I for one love(d) the armoury and was quite disheartened as well when I saw how it was regarded in this last patch note.

[Reaujien]

I call players like you masochists... because you keep playing a game you don't enjoy, and enjoy not enjoying it.