I miss the old PvP.

[blindfoldedkaos]

This is my Heavensward mch hotbar and everything else.
Not including turret retrival as it was useless anyway


https://imgur.com/a/DTsLG

that's still alot! :O

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This is my Heavensward mch hotbar and everything else.
Not including turret retrival as it was useless anyway


https://imgur.com/a/DTsLG

Not a bad setup actually.

If I envy anything, it's that you have everything right there in front of you where I had to cycle hotbars. Muscle memory really went a long way there, so I'd call that even to a degree, yet still fail to see where issues of lacking hotbar space arose. And I had redundancies and just didn't remove skills I knew I didn't use. Technically, I didn't use Spread Shot period (and if I had the luxury of Grenado Shot now instead, I still wouldn't), so that could be one extra slot. Wildfire and Rapid Fire shared a macro, Split Shot and Heartbreak shared one too, and with all but no impact to my ability to play MCH well.

Skills Removed:
Hawk's Eye
Raging Strikes
Blood for Blood (side note: I had these first 3 all on one macro, in the order I wanted them to be used, so that was space saved)
Promotion
Rend Mind
Grenado Shot
Lead Shot
Head Graze
Suppressive Fire
Foot Graze

Skills Gained:
Cooldown
Barrel Stabilizer
Rook Overdrive
Flamethrower
(Not counting Heated Shots as they replace the skill in the slot already)

You can see there was plenty of room to spare between what was lost vs what was gained. We'd have been just fine without the 9 button standard.

[blindfoldedkaos]

Snip

When you get screamed at by a dps player for not healing them as they run far away from you and around the corner while your busy healing the rest of the team? it was pretty toxic. People on primal are quite selfish and quick to place the blame on others, like if they die, it's ether the dps and/or the healers fault they died. even if they are the one who died ran off lone wolf into the enemy spawn.

Based on not my own opinion, but from the giant linkshells and FC's on Lamia, before on Lamia, PvP was equivalent to say people sinning, you may feel good for doing pvp, but to the general public, no-one wanted anything to do with you, they hated it with a huge passion. not to mention frontline queues were 50+ minutes, even after garo was added, before garo? pretty much non existent save the daily reset, the feast? only a handful played, they scared off the rest by being toxic and insulting you, from the way you look, to not being the meta.


As expected really, when you add a large pool of unexperienced people to something that only a smaller group specialized in, the average skill level will take a dive.

The new system, as i said earlier can be seen as 'pick up and play' Stats are auto set,
Moves are condensed so there's less buttons and less confusion for those newer to pvp or the job in pvp.
also the level requirement being reduced and the introduction of exp gave people a chance to experiment with newer jobs they hadn't leveled past 30, do pvp, and get exp all at the same time
(thou we all hate bots)

Not to mention for some, they had to feel like they had to have two builds for every job pre-SB if they did pvp for stat/gear reasons, now they don't.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

First, that's his fault for line-of-sighting the healer. Plain and simple. They can be mad all they want, they screwed up and paid for it, and it's not on you.

Second, I'm well aware of the cold reaction people have given PvP and PvPers in this game. I could practically hear the switch turning off in people's heads if I mentioned PvP, or they'd spout the same crap they heard from others in an attempt to be snarky, yet had no experience to back it up. Word of mouth spread forever ago about PvP, and rather than try it for themselves, people just picked it up and ran with it, lest they be treated as coldly too. Peer pressure at its finest. There are linkshells I no longer speak in, or have left due to that same kind of ignorance. I'm totally still willing to help members of it if they need help in PvE, but I wouldn't for a moment pretend that double standard doesn't exist.

Yes, queues were long before Garo. Those of us who loved it enough simply put up with it, much like DPS players understand their queue times are prone to be longer naturally. Garo didn't fix queues, lifting GC restrictions in the form of Frontline Freelancer - like the community asked and begged for for 3 years did. And they're STILL good as a result. This is largely in part to the ease of matchmaking for the algorithm. Instead of having to try and balance out 56 Mael, 10 Adders and 6 Flames, if it has 72, there's a match.

Even if the jobs are meant to pic "pick up and play" the modes are not. Most new people have never SEEN Secure or Seize, and while Shatter's basic formula is a mix of the two, how Shatter is played will do them no good in either of those modes. And they barely manage Shatter all that well. People rushing to the ice alone when it's teeming with enemies and wondering why they died, people jumping off cliffs to reach the ice when there are enemies waiting below, people IGNORING cliff jumpers and the free points they just dropped right in their laps, then wondering why they lost? I'll throw them a bone: SE has done little to nothing to even TRY and teach players how PvP modes work beyond the basics, and thanks to the bad rep it gets from repeated misconceptions, people don't even know where to seek out the information that's been made available to them by the players themselves.

And lastly, as far as gearing goes, I'm sure we've heard people complain about all the vertical progression with gear in this game before. We've also heard outdated complaints about being outgeared in PvP - something that hasn't been an issue since Frontlines arrived with item level syncing. Now here's the real kicker: As far as horizontal progression might go, guess where old gear found highly effective use again? Sure, I had my PvE and PvP gearsets. By the end of Heavensward, I was full 270 in PvE gear, and my PvP set? My old Lore gear and weapon. A few Gordias/Proto Gordias pieces. A Fending earring for a little more HP. None of which was hard to get if I didn't already have it. Again though, a failure to learn or follow through resulted in those 8-9K DPS/healers that could be one shot by melee LB. And while again, the change was largely to facilitate lower level players getting started, they just as easily could've implemented PvP "starter" gear with comparable stats that were ONLY active in PvP instances. Perhaps though it was simply easier to go the glam-only route, and while I don't mind that, I do still consider it a step back.

[blindfoldedkaos]

the thing about the shatterer being the main instance? once again plays into what people know/heard, on primal the only frontlines match that people manually queue for is shatter, it's quick, easy, and a fast queue. (which becomes a round robin that the fact everyone is doing it, it keeps the wheel turning)

People take time to learn things, always have always will, no one can be expected to join something and know exactly how to play the mode correctly, nor are they likely to look up guides and rather learn through experiences.
Having it glam only route not only simplifies their spagetti code, it also opens up the fact they can keep dumping glamor into the wolves den and not worry about people complaining about the I-level or the level needed to wear that glamor, and thus gets people who want the glamor into PvP.

The whole situation is give and take, they give a large influx of new blood, but they remove what some vets loved.

It's almost akin to the 1.0 vs 2.0 argument where people want/miss 1.0 because it's what they know, rather than what's changed, for better or worse.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

5 months, 2 personally written guides, 2 small video guides, and plenty of on the spot advice, and people are still dropping off cliffs to rush to the ice, ignoring battle highs/fevers, ignoring half-dead enemies for ice while they still attack it too, MCHs still fully loading their guns before battle, and still not getting off their mounts when in range of the enemy. . . there's taking time to learn, and failing to learn, and we're dealing with the latter entirely too much.

"People only queue for Shatter because people only queue for Shatter." With a little effort o the community's part, the same could be said for any mode.

And I have to ask where's the give in this give and take? It's really not a matter of "we added this, but removed this and we feel it's an even trade for players". Veteran PvPers were quite blindsided by the sweeping changes. No one asked for a 9 button standard. MCHs didn't ask to lose all their oGCDs or their burst, and I'm sure tanks didn't want to be less tanky. So what exactly was given? I'm well aware of what was taken.

[blindfoldedkaos]

what was given? a influx of new blood, which on places like primal was needed since frontlines barely got a match of 8 people per team, and now has full matches of 24 per team.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

So, why was a complete overhaul of a working and well established (but not perfect) PvP system necessary for a slightly worse one and "new blood"? I fail to see how new players, which were entirely possible to get before (and we did thanks to 3.5/Freelancer queues/Garo) is somehow an example of give and take?

[Wintersandman]

People on primal are quite selfish and quick to place the blame on others, like if they die, it's ether the dps and/or the healers fault they died.

what was given? a influx of new blood, which on places like primal was needed since frontlines barely got a match of 8 people per team, and now has full matches of 24 per team.

I am going to have to say these statements are full of crock. I play on Primal and never encountered this. Your queues couldn't have been 50 minutes plus after Garo as I had instant queues and we are on the same data center. The new system is actually back to worse queues than during Garo and 3.5.

[Divinemights]

I am going to have to say these statements are full of crock. I play on Primal and never encountered this.

He is probably talking about that discord.