May I present, "LMG - Light Machinist Guide for PvP"

[Mofafafa]

The damage is negligible but the pressure will be offsets for opponent's healer.

In tight games such as Feast, putting pressure is very important. No pressure to blm = you can just wait to lose. No pressure on healer = their mp will always be healthy.

[Nova_Rox]

Why? The damage is the same, maybe a bit better, if you pre-load bullets into hot shot (not talking about using stun gun). The difference in damage is negligible.

Because feast is about BURST and well timed CC. Popping part of your burst in the beginning is a TERRIBLE idea and your burst will now be on CD while your melee tries his. Have you tried solo bursting a good player? With a healer healing? It isn't going to happen.

I think the biggest "issue" here is ego. Lace is talking about ranked Feast and he's right, don't pop Stun Gun early, and everyone else is talking Frontline.

Frontline = almost anything works because, well, it attracts people that are new to PvP or don't PvP in general.

Feast = popping Stun Gun early means you may have just cost the game. Yes, it's that serious at higher rank play.

I will say that if I was going solely based off of this thread I would NOT listen to Lace. He has been shown hard numbers and has not shown his own to prove his side is correct, he has also been, to put it bluntly, coming off salty af in his replies.


Lace:
If you want to REALLY help new players then I'd work on your response to criticism. When you put yourself out there it will happen.

Geryth:
I understand your reasoning for your thinking in FRONTLINE but The Feast is a completely different beast. There, experience DOES play a huge factor and starting with Stun Gun is not going to net you a kill.

[Geryth]

Because feast is about BURST and well timed CC. Popping part of your burst in the beginning is a TERRIBLE idea and your burst will now be on CD while your melee tries his. Have you tried solo bursting a good player? With a healer healing? It isn't going to happen.

I think the biggest "issue" here is ego. Lace is talking about ranked Feast and he's right, don't pop Stun Gun early, and everyone else is talking Frontline.

95% of this thread has been about shatter frontlines. I made that one single comment in one single post about feast in response to Lace's single comment about feast.

Feast = popping Stun Gun early means you may have just cost the game. Yes, it's that serious at higher rank play.

Not one time did I advocate popping stun gun at the start of a feast game. I'm talking purely to Lace's vehement "dont ever pre-load ammo". Pre-loading ammo is not a DPS loss - you're not even using cooldowns or using burst or anything like that, you're literally just offsetting about 500-750 damage into the first 5 seconds instead of around 8 seconds and by 10 seconds, 10 mere seconds, both methods have done the same amount of damage and are now doing the exact same rotation to keep a heat dance. There is literally no difference in damage or even basic strategy when using pre-loaded ammo.

I will say that if I was going solely based off of this thread I would NOT listen to Lace. He has been shown hard numbers and has not shown his own to prove his side is correct, he has also been, to put it bluntly, coming off salty af in his replies.

He just believes too firmly in his anecdotal experience. He's been around playing MCH a long time, he's been playing PvP a long time, and he's a wealth of knowledge and experience. I don't discount that - it means something which is why, despite my personal experience getting great performance out of pre-loading ammo, I decided to give his advice a firm try. I believed in his experience too. So much that I actually thought pre-loading ammo in any situation other than bursting a conestable ice in shatter was otherwise a bad idea. My testing has proved otherwise. I don't know why he isn't willing to see what the numbers show, or at least do his own testing.

Geryth:
I understand your reasoning for your thinking in FRONTLINE but The Feast is a completely different beast. There, experience DOES play a huge factor and starting with Stun Gun is not going to net you a kill.

Pre-loading ammo in feast is perfectly fine. Using stun gun for damage is not. I never said otherwise.

Lastly - thanks for the reply. I felt like I was going crazy for a bit when no one was acknowledging that the numbers show that pre-loading ammo is a perfectly okay thing to do.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I was actually referring to playing the job in general. I never mentioned the Feast til it was brought up. Oh, and criticism I can handle, that's not an issue.

My issue now is where the information provided is sound and proven works, but someone's effectively saying "I like my way better because it works situationally, and here's possibly erroneous data behind it."

I mean, if I'M wrong, I'd just adapt. But purely through experience alone, I figured this out, and merely offered the info to help. Even basic napkin math done at work using the potencies from the PvP guide alone tells a different story:

[With Reloads applied for the shot combo only]
Within 3 GCDs:
Preloaded: 1000>1250> 1500 = 3750
Dual Hot Shot: 750>750>1250 = 2750

Within the first 3 GCDs, preloading is definitely ahead, that's undisputable. However comma look at 5 GCDs

Within 5GCDs:
Preloaded: 1000>1250>1500>750>750 = 5250, now heated
Dual Hot Shot: 750>750>1250>1500>1750 = 6000, now heated
And as a hypothetical idea, Preloaded, shot combo only (No Hot Shot since it's lower potency): 1000>1250>1500>1000>1250 = 6000, however no heat generated still.

Take these numbers and apply the 10% Overheat to the shot combo if you like (making sure to adjust that Hot Shot becomes Cooldown when heated, and is equivalent to a normal Heated Split Shot without ammo, i.e. 1000)

At the end of it all, do whatever works for you. Make a video and provide the numbers (as I did, BTW) to promote preloading instead if you like. I would make it a point to watch it and even point people in the direction of it. After all, the biggest killer in PvP is all the stuff people just legit don't know these days. And call it being salty if you like, but I think anyone gets irritated when someone literally says "You're right, but. . ."

[Syrus_Draco]

Skimming through the posts there is a key element that I feel is missing from the convo. The thread so far has been focused on the highest potential damage against a striking dummy, which is very different once you're out on the field in either Shatter or Feast. Same deal as measuring DPS on a striking dummy versus going into Savage Raid. The missing element is the enemy player and enemy team.

ThirdChild has brought up the topic of keeping the Stun Gun for CC use, which is very valuable. CC allows you A) to help secure a kill 2) Help remove yourself from a bad situation 3) Give you the edge if you are dueling someone 1v1

Frontlines:
Enemy Team is advancing on You: This is a PVP mode, so you must account for the enemy team advancing on your group. Having the Stun Gun available will do a few things here
-You can stun a group of melee that may have rushed over to your location. This means you are potentially stunning one or more persons for 2 Seconds >> Enemy players are locked in this position and they are unable to act. This allows your team to either flee or counter attack
-You can stun enemy players that are putting pressure on your teammates, such as your healer. It is very common for players to rush on the healer, and if your healer needs some assistance, you can AOE stun any players trying to attack your healer >> THis allows your healer to back off and catch up on healing. Now your healer is still on their feet thanks to your CC! The rest of the team will continue to sustain through the fight

Secure the Kill:
As mentioned before, CC is a very key tool when it comes to securing kills. While Ice does give a large chunk of points in FL, and is the main objective, matches can be turned around if you are able to secure kills for points
-Group Stun: You have the potential to stun a group of enemy players for 2 seconds. This gives your team free damage without the need to move/chase >> Now the enemy needs to catch up on healing or flee from the damage
-Stun the Healer: Common practice is to CC the healer as long as possible. If the healer is CC'd then the enemy team will be short on heals for a few seconds >> Your team is able to push more damage and kill players during this CC window!
-Chase and Secure: In some situations, you can pop Sprint while chasing down potential kills. Depending on the situation, you can use your CC if all other CC has been exhausted from other teammates >> They're stunned and you got free damage to secure the kill!

Stop damage on the Ice:
This is an uncommon note that I practice in FL, mainly because if anyone is wise to this trick, it can easily back fire
-Stun a group of enemy melee on the Ice: A group of enemy melee are now stunned and unable to damage the ice for a few seconds, slowing their damage progress on the ice >> Careful! You've just placed yourself in melee position for a counter attack! If anyone is paying attention they can easily lock you down and kill you

Wildfire and Between the Eyes:
When preparing to do MCH burst, having the Stun Gun available will accomplish a few things here. Wildfire should be applied on the target first, before considering using the Stun Gun, and with that in mind:
-Stun Gun damage: An extra 1000 damage calculated into WF
-Enemy Locked: Stunned for 2 seconds and dropping their damage or healing
-Overheat: Now your skills will have that added 10% increase for a bigger WF burst
-Between the Eyes: This should be used while the enemy is still Stunned! Now Between the Eyes' damage has greatly increased, which will add to WF as well

All of that lines up for a strong Wildfire, and helps set up a scenario to accomplish a kill, both in Frontlines and Feast!

I would imagine that these points will outline how one should strongly consider holding on to their Stun Gun, and utilize it as the fight demands. While it can be used as a DPS tool to quickly get high numbers in a short amount of time, the strongest potential of Stun Gun comes with its AOE stun, and the Overheat is an added mechanic you can use to your advantage! Again, if you use Stun Gun as a DPS cooldown rather than utility, then you are out of a strong tool that can be used for different scenarios for the next 60 seconds. Because of the nature of a PVP scenario, you're going to be fighting a lot players, which creates so many scenarios to consider; scenarios where your Stun Gun could mean the difference of surviving, saving a teammate, or securing a kill with CC and burst damage.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

^ He gets it.

Ice is not, and never was my metric for efficacy of skills used. It never will be either.

[Kalia]

[With Reloads applied for the shot combo only]
Within 3 GCDs:
Preloaded: 1000>1250> 1500 = 3750
Dual Hot Shot: 750>750>1250 = 2750

Within the first 3 GCDs, preloading is definitely ahead, that's undisputable. However comma look at 5 GCDs

Within 5GCDs:
Preloaded: 1000>1250>1500>750>750 = 5250, now heated
Dual Hot Shot: 750>750>1250>1500>1750 = 6000, now heated

The major flaw in this napkin math is that the preload rotation gains a GCD from the 1.5s recast GCDs by the 5 GCD mark. So you need to be comparing 5 GCD no ammo to 6 GCD ammo.

For the no ammo opener, the 5th GCD lands after 2.3+2.3+2.3+2.3 = 9.2 seconds (4 delays added because there's only delay after a GCD hits, so it's the delay after GCD# 1, 2, 3, and 4)
For the preload opener, the 6th GCD lands after 1.5+1.5+1.5+2.3+2.3 = 9.1 seconds.

This means the preload opener gains a 1250 potency GCD in the same time frame and wins out in potency. You can argue that the no ammo opener can start using QR earlier (a valid point), but then we're adding a TP disparity between the rotations, since the preload opener will also have 1000 TP to spend and will catch up to the same ammo'd shots after all 5 initial QRs are used.

I said this in my initial post, but I think no ammo is still better since you can start using TP on QR sooner, and you're ready for a full burst earlier. You're also mostly shooting full health targets with your first few GCDs, so the early potencies usually don't matter as much. However, it's simply incorrect that no ammo is 100% superior to ammo. They are both valid, so I'm presenting the side I feel is being underrepresented

The calculations above assume Increased Action Speed is not taken. With Increased Action Speed, the numbers become:
No Ammo: 5th GCD at 2.23 x 4 = 8.92s
Preload: 6th GCD at 1.5 x 3 + 2.23 x 2 = 8.96
Which is still pretty much the same delay.

Also I really don't mean any disrespect, but if the advice being given in this thread is sound, then we don't need to write off the justification as "experience", numbers/data should prove any point being made here (and the discussion leading that direction is very healthy and should be encouraged).

[Geryth]

Even basic napkin math done at work using the potencies from the PvP guide alone tells a different story:

[With Reloads applied for the shot combo only]
Within 3 GCDs:
Preloaded: 1000>1250> 1500 = 3750
Dual Hot Shot: 750>750>1250 = 2750

Within the first 3 GCDs, preloading is definitely ahead, that's undisputable. However comma look at 5 GCDs

Within 5GCDs:
Preloaded: 1000>1250>1500>750>750 = 5250, now heated
Dual Hot Shot: 750>750>1250>1500>1750 = 6000, now heated
And as a hypothetical idea, Preloaded, shot combo only (No Hot Shot since it's lower potency): 1000>1250>1500>1000>1250 = 6000, however no heat generated still.

Your napkin math is missing a crucial piece of information that is nicely demonstrated in the combat trackers logs where I've filtered them to your "first 5 global cooldown" scenario:

Pre-loaded ammo into hotshot logs - I filtered out the extra noise as well as Wildfire and Between the Eyes:
[20:30:52.898] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:228D:Split Shot:40000029:Striking
[20:30:52.000] 00:082b:You use Split Shot.
[20:30:52.000] 00:0b29:? The striking dummy takes 1045 damage.
[20:30:54.546] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:228E:Slug Shot:40000029:Striking
[20:30:55.000] 00:082b:You use Slug Shot.
[20:30:55.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 1399(+40%) damage.
[20:30:56.102] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:228F:Clean Shot:40000029:Striking
[20:30:56.000] 00:082b:You use Clean Shot.
[20:30:56.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 1675(+50%) damage.
[20:30:57.650] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:259B:Hot Shot:40000029:Striking
[20:30:57.000] 00:082b:You use Hot Shot.
[20:30:57.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 834 damage.
[20:30:59.842] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:259B:Hot Shot:40000029:Striking
[20:30:59.000] 00:082b:You use Hot Shot.
[20:30:59.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 810 damage.
==
5765 total damage

No ammo into hotshot logs (also filtered of extra noise and WF and BTE):
[19:10:53.017] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:259B:Hot Shot:40000029:Striking
[19:10:52.000] 00:082b:You use Hot Shot.
[19:10:52.000] 00:0b29:? The striking dummy takes 792 damage.
[19:10:55.205] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:259B:Hot Shot:40000029:Striking
[19:10:54.000] 00:082b:You use Hot Shot.
[19:10:54.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 812 damage.
[19:10:56.847] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:259C:Quick Reload:103AF490:Geryth
[19:10:57.581] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:2290:Heated Split Shot:40000029:Striking
[19:10:57.000] 00:082b:You use Heated Split Shot.
[19:10:57.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 1334 damage.
[19:10:58.487] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:259C:Quick Reload:103AF490:Geryth
[19:10:59.223] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:2291:Heated Slug Shot:40000029:Striking
[19:10:59.000] 00:082b:You use Heated Slug Shot.
[19:10:59.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 1560(+33%) damage.
[19:11:00.140] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:259C:Quick Reload:103AF490:Geryth
//Between the eyes omitted
[19:11:01.699] 15:103AF490:Geryth Drayfore:2292:Heated Clean Shot:40000029:Striking
[19:11:01.000] 00:082b:You use Heated Clean Shot.
[19:11:01.000] 00:0aa9:? The striking dummy takes 1984(+42%) damage.
==
6482 total damage

We see the damage difference you noted after this "5 GCD" sample. But look carefully at the timestamps. Quick Reload reduces the GCD by 1.5s. So by leading off with full GCD hotshots, it took us 8.7 seconds to get those 5 abilities off. In the pre-load scenario, it took us just 6.9 seconds. This is why pre-loading doesn't lose damage. The 750 extra potency plus the reduction in GCD is what near perfectly offsets the delay in heat damage (numbers show it's actually a bit better but that might be poor sample size). Let's also note that in pre-load scenario it takes 6 seconds to get into heated status, opposed to 4 seconds in a no ammo scenario. That's a negligible difference of 2 seconds.

Again, we're talking about a 10 second window where now both strategies are on an even playing field playing the same heat dance. Actual numbers and practicality show that pre-loading ammo is not a DPS loss and hardly adjusts your strategy if at all. Again, pre-loading is simply putting more damage in the first 5'ish seconds that the no ammo strat is making up at about the 8 second mark. By 10 seconds they are the same.

There is no detriment to pre-loading ammo that I can see. This is irrespective of stun gun or feast or frontlines or ices or anything.

The major flaw in this napkin math is that the preload rotation gains a GCD from the 1.5s recast GCDs by the 5 GCD mark. So you need to be comparing 5 GCD no ammo to 6 GCD ammo.

Ninja'd

I said this in my initial post, but I think no ammo is still better since you can start using TP on QR sooner, and you're ready for a full burst earlier.

Only by two seconds

[Geryth]

Snip

You've missed the last two pages of discourse. This was all assuming that the only good use of pre-loaded ammo was to burst an ice in frontlines. That's not the case. This so very much opens the flexbility of pre-loading ammo, especially in Shatter. Always, always preload, and then you can pick whether or not stun-guning an ice is a good idea.

Anyone can go scenario by scenario - absolutely there's reasons not to use stun gun on the first ice. But since pre-loading ammo was proven not to matter, it actually doesn't matter. Pre-load away, and use discretion on whether or not you want to use stun gun for burst. The argument used to be that if you pre-loaded ammo to use stun gun to burst an ice, you've put yourself at a disadvantage in every single scenario that using stun gun wasn't an ideal choice. This isn't true!

So now if you're a pre-loader you can have your cake and eat it too, in any mode, and in shatter it has the potential to get extra ice points if it's an ideal start to use stun gun.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

But since pre-loading ammo was proven not to matter, it actually doesn't matter. Pre-load away, and use discretion on whether or not you want to use stun gun for burst.

Or, you know, don't, and sustain your peak damage per shot early and indefinitely and still keep a strong cc skill in the pocket for both offensive burst or defensive application. . . Sounds like we've come full circle to when I said, "while there are times to do it, don't always do it."