The Legacy of Alexander and the Xaela [Spoilers]

[LystAP]

The Dotharl massacre of the Hotgo is only timed as "recent." Mide and Dayan were in Dravania and summoned Alexander what was it... three years ago? Their exact reasoning for summoning Alexander wasn't elaborated upon, to my knowledge, beyond the same reason the goblins gave (making a perfect world - the vision of what "perfect" meant was different though). Of course they didn't actually summon Alexander, but... time travel is confusing.

Hmm... well, those aren't gunblades of the same type the Empire uses. Those are emphasis on the gunblade; the Imperial version emphasizes the gunblade. Still, there are probably gunblade designs in the Codex.

While the Dotharl's massacre of the Hotgo is terrible, remember that they are Xaela; strength is the way of the Steppe. It's cultural thing.

Three years could be recent, but so could ten. It's unknown at the moment.

Mide and Dayan wanted to create a place that they could call home, and travel the world seeking knowledge - I recall this being mentioned in the Alexander quest chain - a home that could move with them, which makes sense considering the nomadic nature of the Xaela. They strove for the perfect world shared by the goblins, an ideal which was twisted by the Illuminati.

And there is a different from strength and wholesale slaughter. Other tribes have been attacked and defeated, but there are survivors - such as the Kahkol and the Qerel. The Dotharl do not appear to be a tribe that murders non-combatants, although that may be SE overemphasizing the tribe's positive aspects. It's just unknown at this point, although I'm hope that SE may mention it, considering the note of the massacre is just below the Dotharl's bit on the naming convention. It's the big elephant in the room when interacting with the Dotharl, especially in light of Magnai/Sadu's little ongoing comedy.

[KihtJakkya]

The Dotharl massacre of the Hotgo is only timed as "recent." Mide and Dayan were in Dravania and summoned Alexander what was it... three years ago? Their exact reasoning for summoning Alexander wasn't elaborated upon, to my knowledge, beyond the same reason the goblins gave (making a perfect world - the vision of what "perfect" meant was different though). Of course they didn't actually summon Alexander, but... time travel is confusing.

Hmm... well, those aren't gunblades of the same type the Empire uses. Those are emphasis on the gunblade; the Imperial version emphasizes the gunblade. Still, there are probably gunblade designs in the Codex.

While the Dotharl's massacre of the Hotgo is terrible, remember that they are Xaela; strength is the way of the Steppe. It's cultural thing.

Three years could be recent, but so could ten. It's unknown at the moment.

Mide and Dayan wanted to create a place that they could call home, and travel the world seeking knowledge - I recall this being mentioned in the Alexander quest chain - a home that could move with them, which makes sense considering the nomadic nature of the Xaela. They strove for the perfect world shared by the goblins, an ideal which was twisted by the Illuminati.

And there is a different from strength and wholesale slaughter. Other tribes have been attacked and defeated, but there are survivors - such as the Kahkol and the Qerel. The Dotharl do not appear to be a tribe that murders non-combatants, although that may be SE overemphasizing the tribe's positive aspects. It's just unknown at this point, although I'm hope that SE may mention it, considering the note of the massacre is just below the Dotharl's bit on the naming convention. It's the big elephant in the room when interacting with the Dotharl, especially in light of Magnai/Sadu's little ongoing comedy.

I'd like to point out that the Dotharl tribe is the -only- tribe mentioned in the lore as committing to the total massacre of another tribe. This is not common in the Steppes.

"Adarkim: The largest of the Xaela tribes. While not the most skilled at battle, they overwhelm with numbers, taking losses in stride, knowing that a future victory over a weaker tribe will replenish their ranks."

"Avagnar: Though defeated and absorbed by the Adarkim, several of the proud tribe's members still secretly use its ancestral name, knowing that it could mean death if they are discovered."

"Jhungid: The second largest Xaela tribe. Mortal enemies with the Kharlu, the Jungid will spend the greater part of the year subjugating smaller tribes to swell their own ranks in preparation for an annual battle with the Kharlu--the winner gaining control over a large part of the eastern coastlands."

"Kharlu: The third largest Xaela tribe. Mortal enemies with the Jungid, the Kharlu will spend the greater part of the year subjugating smaller tribes to swell their own ranks in preparation for an annual battle with the Jungid--the winner gaining control over a large part of the eastern coastlands."

"Dotharl: An extremely violent tribe with members who revel in massacre and are taught from a young age not to fear death. While they are quick to attack other tribes, mortality rates are high, ensuring that their numbers never grow too high."

"Hotgo: A tribe recently massacred by the Dotharl. The only members surviving are those who left the tribe to travel on their own and were not present during the killing. The Hotgo were known for their vibrant face paints which members would constantly change depending on their current mood."

"Kahkol: A tribe made up of orphans and refugees from tribes defeated or destroyed. Many choose to combine the name of their old tribe with Kahkol."

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3039574


If you click the link to the source I used, you will notice that there are plenty of tribes that are not even known for fighting. But more importantly, those that are, tend to do it for slaves, resources, territory and/or dominance. This can also be confirmed in-game via the quests and Fates of Azim Steppes.

Even in the Nadaam, a tribe could lose without having every warrior killed in battle, and they certainly do not send every man, woman and child into battle. The Hotgo were totally massacred. It is made clear that the Dotharl killed every man, woman and child who was there. Only Hotgo who were away form the tribe survived. If there were any Hotgo left from the massacre, they would have joined the Kahkol. The Dotharl spared no one.

Then you have tribes like the Mol. Everyone thinks they are weak; even some members of their own tribe. Yet, they are not massacred. They survive, and even have land and resources. They live on the Steppes unlike some tribes that survive by avoiding the Steppes to favor places other tribes don't want to go.

My point is, war is common for the Xaela, but total massacre is not. Massacre is a Dotharl thing. But you wouldn't know it by meeting them in-game. So, what's the deal?

The whole basis for my argument is that I see a lot of people hand-waving what the Dotharl did as "the way of the Steppes". However, if it were, why don't we see more of it? Why is it only noted to happen to the Hotgo? I think there is a bigger story there - one I hope will be revealed.

[alimdia]

why didn’t its owners use the Codex to uplift the Xaela?

If the Hotgo was founded by Mide and Dayan, and they were able to see everything Alexander could, every possible outcome of changing history, I would say it makes sense for them to lead history to the exact same path it is right now and don't prevent their tribe from being massacred, knowing it would lead to them eventually summoning and stopping alexander.

Not sure if this makes sense, it's hard to convey what I mean in a topic about time traveling.

The whole basis for my argument is that I see a lot of people hand-waving what the Dotharl did as "the way of the Steppes". However, if it were, why don't we see more of it? Why is it only noted to happen to the Hotgo? I think there is a bigger story there - one I hope will be revealed.

The answer to that is in your own post

"Kahkol: A tribe made up of orphans and refugees from tribes defeated or destroyed. Many choose to combine the name of their old tribe with Kahkol."

Tribes defeated and tribes destroyed, so this isn't the first time a tribe is destroyed, the Hotgo isn't a single occurrence nor it's an outlier if it has happened enough times that the survivors ended up uniting in a tribe.

Then going off this

"Many choose to combine the name of their old tribe with Kahkol."

We would have to wait until we meet more Kahkol to know the names of the other tribes that were destroyed or defeated.

[LystAP]

If the Hotgo was founded by Mide and Dayan, and they were able to see everything Alexander could, every possible outcome of changing history, I would say it makes sense for them to lead history to the exact same path it is right now and don't prevent their tribe from being massacred, knowing it would lead to them eventually summoning and stopping alexander.

Not sure if this makes sense, it's hard to convey what I mean in a topic about time traveling.





The answer to that is in your own post

"Kahkol: A tribe made up of orphans and refugees from tribes defeated or destroyed. Many choose to combine the name of their old tribe with Kahkol."

Tribes defeated and tribes destroyed, so this isn't the first time a tribe is destroyed, the Hotgo isn't a single occurrence nor it's an outlier if it has happened enough times that the survivors ended up uniting in a tribe.

Then going off this

"Many choose to combine the name of their old tribe with Kahkol."

We would have to wait until we meet more Kahkol to know the names of the other tribes that were destroyed or defeated.

Having a tribe destroyed is different from a whole-scale massacre. Technically, the Avagnar are destroyed, as their culture was wholly assimilated by the Adarkim. But there were survivors. The outlier is the implication in the Hotgo text that the Dotharl massacred every last member they could get their hands on.

The question being asked in Kiht's post isn't about how the tribe was destroyed, but how every man, woman and child was killed by a strangely honorable tribe in the MSQ. The Dotharl revel in the battle and seek to have their souls shine bright, I doubt slaughtering children would make their souls very bright.

[Cilia]

The Dotharl we meet are relatively peaceful and welcoming precisely because of their massacre of the Hotgo. Exactly when it was carried out is unknown, but the Dotharl suffered heavy casualties in so doing. Sadu recognizes that going on massacres will eventually drive the Dotharl to extinction, which is likely why their aggression was toned down in Stormblood. At present, Sadu is focused on rebuilding the Dotharl's numbers - not going on massacres.

[Y]ou are not the most prosperous of tribes. The Mol you mock are few, but so too are you. Why?

...Though a glorious death is to be celebrated, it is yet death. While we kill many, many are killed in turn. In the wake of our battles, the soil drinks deep of the blood of the fallen, their bodies piled high. Not all are born again. Only the bravest. Yet one cannot return unless there is a vessel to inherit the soul, and if warriors die ere they birth children, then that is that. Even the brave warrior who finds a vessel will for many years remain a shadow of his former self. It falls to his elders to endure until he is ready to accept his responsibilities. Ever will we meet our enemies in battle without fear. Such is our way, even when our numbers dwindle. If we die, so be it─but know that we fight to live, not to die. Dotharl train and make ready for the day─but they do not rush to meet it. Not until we have done our duty.

Either the old khan died, or Sadu's priorities have changed from when the Dotharl massacred the Hotgo.

Why full-on massacre of the Hotgo? Unknown. There is very little we know of the massacre itself - only that it happened. Who started the conflict? When? Where was it? Why did it happen? The only thing we know is that it did happen "recently."

There are a number of inconsistencies regarding the Hotgo's own description as well, since Mide is never seen wearing face paint. She's also a skilled machinist, which wouldn't make sense for a nomad of the Steppe unless she left a long time ago and/or the Hotgo still had access to the information in the Enigma Codex, which would enable them to make weapons far more advanced than what we see other denizens of the Steppe using. This would explain the heavy Dotharl casualties, small population, and accordingly more defensive attitude we see them with.

There's just not enough information to determine much of anything at the moment. It may be explained in greater detail later... or it may not.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Snip

I feel it is important to point out that the info in that tribe list is actually flawed being Eorzean scholar understanding and in universe is based heavily on 2nd and 3rd hand accounts.

The differences between the text on the Goro (horse marriage) and Dataqi (living in the saddle, rarely camping) and the truth (Goro swear life friendships with their horses and the Dataqi just migrate very often) shows how flawed that info is.

[LineageRazor]

It's entirely possible that the Hotgo may not be as innocent in all this as people believe. Consider this...

Mide and Dayan start their new tribe. They came from an era where their tribe was wiped out by the Dotharl - and if they passed on this knowledge to their descendants, the Hotgo culture would naturally be one very distrustful of the Dotharl. Very likely, in fact, they would be quite hostile toward them - something which may very much have puzzled the Dotharl in the early days, as, to their knowledge, they'd done nothing to earn that enmity. The Hotgo shot first!

To avoid their fate, over the course of history the Hotgo may have taken steps to try to wipe out the Dotharl, and some of those steps may have been dishonorable. Poisons, assassinations - perhaps even murder of the "easy" targets among the Dotharl, such as their children. It's entirely possible that the Dotharl wiped out every woman, man, and child because whenever survivors had been left previously they invariably regrouped and redoubled their harassment of the Dotharl. The last, most recent purge was the Dotharl finally deciding that enough was enough, that the only way to save themselves was to wipe out the Hotgo completely.

Still quite distasteful, to be sure - but perhaps a bit more understandable.

And, as we know, the Dotharl failed anyway. There WERE survivors - Mide and Dayan for starters, but who knows how many others might have been away at the time of the massacre? The Hotgo may yet live on.

As for folks who are distressed by Mide and Dayan being "trapped in a time loop," I wouldn't be too worried. As far as we can tell, the two of them lived a very prosperous life in the past, and were able to form a new tribe of their own before passing on. I'd say there could be far worse fates than that.

[LystAP]

It's entirely possible that the Hotgo may not be as innocent in all this as people believe. Consider this...

Mide and Dayan start their new tribe. They came from an era where their tribe was wiped out by the Dotharl - and if they passed on this knowledge to their descendants, the Hotgo culture would naturally be one very distrustful of the Dotharl. Very likely, in fact, they would be quite hostile toward them - something which may very much have puzzled the Dotharl in the early days, as, to their knowledge, they'd done nothing to earn that enmity. The Hotgo shot first!

To avoid their fate, over the course of history the Hotgo may have taken steps to try to wipe out the Dotharl, and some of those steps may have been dishonorable. Poisons, assassinations - perhaps even murder of the "easy" targets among the Dotharl, such as their children. It's entirely possible that the Dotharl wiped out every woman, man, and child because whenever survivors had been left previously they invariably regrouped and redoubled their harassment of the Dotharl. The last, most recent purge was the Dotharl finally deciding that enough was enough, that the only way to save themselves was to wipe out the Hotgo completely.

Still quite distasteful, to be sure - but perhaps a bit more understandable.

And, as we know, the Dotharl failed anyway. There WERE survivors - Mide and Dayan for starters, but who knows how many others might have been away at the time of the massacre? The Hotgo may yet live on.

As for folks who are distressed by Mide and Dayan being "trapped in a time loop," I wouldn't be too worried. As far as we can tell, the two of them lived a very prosperous life in the past, and were able to form a new tribe of their own before passing on. I'd say there could be far worse fates than that.

Mide and Dayan were idealistic dreamers, as were their kin. The Enigma Codex was completed over a long period of time, and presumably it stayed in the Hotgo. At the moment, there's very little evidence that the Hotgo have been hostile or bad at all, while the Dotharl have a fearsome history, to the point that Cirina admitted in the MSQ that she was frightened of talking to Sadu.

There's a lot more evidence towards Dotharl being the instigators of hostilities than the Hotgo, especially what was shown of the tribes in the MSQ. In addition, if we're going with proposals, the Dotharl ideology has a lot of fit with Ascian teachings, from the pseudo-black magic to the belief in eternity (i.e. the Echo, which the Ascians have manipulated before with the Sahagin back in ARR.) The snippet noted that the only survivors were those away, it is possible that more survive, but what is of concern and interest is why did the Dotharl massacre the entire tribe. If they wanted to wipe out the tribe entirely, wouldn't they have sent assassins after the Hotgo diaspora, there are no signs of such an attempt? Xaela are known for their wanderlust, such as for the Hotgo (or at least those following the Enigma Codex), the Dotharl would have had to take that into account.

A key part of FFXIV is the theme of legacies, a theme that's also coming up in Stormblood. While them living their own lives happily is fine after all, in terms of the stories they pass along, the Hotgo story is a tragedy. Their descendants are trapped in time, and their legacy will never progress pass this point. It may change later, as Alexander manages to free itself later to return the two to the past, but this is all unknown. Perhaps SE will answer the question, perhaps they won't.

[KageTokage]

It struck me as a little odd that the only Ascian meddling we've heard of in Stormblood so far was directed at the Raen when the Xaela have a culture full of conflict and strife that seems like it would suit their desires much better.

I'm kind of hoping the future MSQs will involve them stirring up some trouble on the steppe if they haven't already.

[PhantasticPanda]

I feel it is important to point out that the info in that tribe list is actually flawed being Eorzean scholar understanding and in universe is based heavily on 2nd and 3rd hand accounts.

The differences between the text on the Goro (horse marriage) and Dataqi (living in the saddle, rarely camping) and the truth (Goro swear life friendships with their horses and the Dataqi just migrate very often) shows how flawed that info is.

The first Goro we meet at Reunion supports the text of the horse marriage... Seeing as how he talks to his horse as one would talk to their love. While at the same time, the text also states that reproductive mates are chosen, so its clear that they don't exactly mate with their horses. Marriage doesn't have to imply anything sexual and we see a lot of that in history. In this case, its just be a special bond between two individuals (or horse in this matter).

It's entirely possible that the Hotgo may not be as innocent in all this as people believe. Consider this...

Mide and Dayan start their new tribe. They came from an era where their tribe was wiped out by the Dotharl - and if they passed on this knowledge to their descendants, the Hotgo culture would naturally be one very distrustful of the Dotharl. Very likely, in fact, they would be quite hostile toward them - something which may very much have puzzled the Dotharl in the early days, as, to their knowledge, they'd done nothing to earn that enmity. The Hotgo shot first!

To avoid their fate, over the course of history the Hotgo may have taken steps to try to wipe out the Dotharl, and some of those steps may have been dishonorable. Poisons, assassinations - perhaps even murder of the "easy" targets among the Dotharl, such as their children. It's entirely possible that the Dotharl wiped out every woman, man, and child because whenever survivors had been left previously they invariably regrouped and redoubled their harassment of the Dotharl. The last, most recent purge was the Dotharl finally deciding that enough was enough, that the only way to save themselves was to wipe out the Hotgo completely.

Still quite distasteful, to be sure - but perhaps a bit more understandable.

And, as we know, the Dotharl failed anyway. There WERE survivors - Mide and Dayan for starters, but who knows how many others might have been away at the time of the massacre? The Hotgo may yet live on.

As for folks who are distressed by Mide and Dayan being "trapped in a time loop," I wouldn't be too worried. As far as we can tell, the two of them lived a very prosperous life in the past, and were able to form a new tribe of their own before passing on. I'd say there could be far worse fates than that.

THe question is, would Dayan and Mide stoop to those levels, considering they had the mindset to actually activate the Enigma Codex and control Alexander from within? To create a perfect would from the broken. We also don't know how far into the past when they were able to begin their tribe again. And they began again as children. Would that have wiped their memories of their adulthood? Even with the idea that the Hotgo shot first, that still doesn't change the fact the Dotharl are known for their revel in massacre. They take pleasure in it, and I'm sure other tribes don't take kindly to those sorts of attacks on their own people either. Even after returning to the Azim Steppes and speaking with Sadu after Doma Castle, she calls the Garleans poor sport and boring.

There are a number of inconsistencies regarding the Hotgo's own description as well, since Mide is never seen wearing face paint. She's also a skilled machinist, which wouldn't make sense for a nomad of the Steppe unless she left a long time ago and/or the Hotgo still had access to the information in the Enigma Codex, which would enable them to make weapons far more advanced than what we see other denizens of the Steppe using. This would explain the heavy Dotharl casualties, small population, and accordingly more defensive attitude we see them with.

I just wanted to point that Mide isn't actually a skilled machinist (until probably recently). That probably better falls on Dayan. I don't have the quotes on hand but when Mide tells the tale of her story and her meeting Dayan, it was Dayan's plan to find the Enigma Codex and use it. During this time, she fell in love with him, and states that while she hardly knows or understands the things that Dayan tinkers or builds with, but she'll try her best to help him. We know that the Hotgo responsible for the Enigma Codex created it while studying with the Sharylans. It could be possible that Dayan was related to this specific Hotgo. I HOPE THIS GETS COVERED IN A LORE PANEL.