I do not have a "Main" I want to gear all jobs, change weekly gatings?

[TankHunter678]

-snip-

A large chunk of MMOs do not even have palette swapped gear, they just have the basic character outfit and the gear is not even modeled outside of maybe the weapon. And a MMO like World of Warcraft uses the same recolored armors from the previous expansions. At least FFXIV has mostly new gear models in a new expansion.

And actually for a lot of MMOs they do take forever to level a new character to max level, the ones that are easy to level another character to max happens to be the last hold outs of pay to play MMOs specifically WoW and FFXIV. Its pretty clear you have not played Korean grindfest MMOs which make up the majority of the market.

Not to mention other MMOs actually recycle content to a far, far greater degree then FFXIV. I mean damn, you must have played very little of the MMO market over the years to not have seen that.

And talking with my friend, who is a long time MMO player as well, uncapped tomestones means that people will grind it out in a week or two and stop paying. They stop playing till the next progression patch, something that only comes once every 6 months, and that is also a large portion of the playerbase who plays like this. This is why WoW has been trying to push to have yearly expansions by sacrificing the current expansion, so that they get larger more regular surges of money rather then trying to make an expansion last. Cause all they see is they release an expansion, get a surge of money, and then the money tapers off to briefly rise whenever a new raid tier is released and then drops again.

Imagine if half the playerbase (this is a themepark MMO after all) stops paying and playing the game because they have no reason to run the content anymore because it only took them maybe a week to cap out everything they wanted. The result would be massive profit loss which means that Square needs to start firing developers to fit the budget they are getting. Which means less content gets developed due to too small of a team which leads to even more profit loss because there is no way they can develop enough content to keep people around for more then a week if things were not gated.

In fact, how about you go and find a thriving MMO that does not have a endgame gated in some manner. Especially raid level gear. Which is what you are complaining about being gated in the first place

[Bourne_Endeavor]

What does Expert roulette possibly have to do with Savage raiding? What? How? What?

You said:

The issue is you absolutely can't do everything on one character. To have the same freedom as in other MMOs, then like any other MMO, you must place every gear type on a separate character. It's counter-intuitive.

You never specifically mentioned Savage, thus I answered both it and regular content can be done on any job.

The point is if you place those jobs on separate characters, then they ARE gearable just as quickly as your main. If you place them, however, on the same character as the game suggests, then you cannot—you are shooting yourself in the foot. Great if it only took off your pinky toe; you still shot yourself.

So why would you make something like the ability to play all jobs on one character a selling point of a game wherein you are actually going to disadvantage exactly that?

Because they know very few people will level a second character, let alone multiple. The devs look at Savage and see you clearing it as successful. The community looks at their FFlogs. That is the disconnect here. For the dev team, if you clear content at ilvl 315, they couldn't give a damn about how well you did. The game doesn't suggest anything more than you can play every job. Nowhere does it say they all can be geared simultaneously.

snip

And by doing that, who is queuing into the 24 Man raid come 4.1? I'd argue most raiders gear at least two jobs fully. Say you have someone who tanks and alts Dragoon. With the system you purpose, they are finished gearing well before Ivalice drops. Therefore, you now have someone with no incentive to run Ivalice more than once. A separate currency for each role also benefits tanks and healers significantly more as they share gear whereas DPS are split into four categories. Furthermore, how wouldn't this speed up the process substantially? I cap without even intending to on Wednesday because of raid. That means I have five days to cap on tanks, heals and whatever else I fancy-- roles that normally only receive tomestone gear later are now apart of my weekly (bi-weekly) ritual. Adding to the fact I would also be guaranteed loot from Savage each week, plus the additional pages and possibly upgrade items and I can assure you I won't only have my tanks and heals at max ilvl, they'll be full BiS in three months.

Now 4.1 rolls around and I have seven jobs fully geared; they are the only jobs I care to play. That means I have no incentive to run roulettes anymore, no incentive to keep killing Omega barring speed kills and the like and no incentive to run Ivalice. In other words, the gate is removed in all but name alone. Now imagine the queues with a system where every single player could gear their tanks, heals and at least two DPS concurrently.

The fact you can get around these limitations on a separate character is irrelevant when only hardcore raiders do it. Put simply, the devs don't care because the amount of people willing to exploit that loophole are so few, it doesn't upset their system.

[jameseoakes]

Only a small subsection of the population will ever level crafting jobs, and purchasing crafted gear off the marketboard is a fool's errand considering how exorbitantly overpriced it is, so that isn't a valid example to use.

Verity (or whatever the current content's uncapped tomestone happens to be at the time) is generally an incredible grind outside of your daily roulette boosts, which would fall under "snail's pace" gating.

Maybe if crafting wasn't such an exceptionally frustrating chore to level, more people would bother with it. Maybe if tomestone gear wasn't so exceptionally expensive, people wouldn't mind running the dungeons so much. We'll never know though, because Squeenix won't ever change anything.

How are verity hard to get the game throws them at you, and if your not willing to put some effort in why do you want or need the best gear

[Shurrikhan]

Which you can be done easily with verity or crafted gear

That's easier said than done when a typical Lakshimi/Susano Ex farm requests i318 or higher and each piece of crafted gear runs around a half million gil.

Now, please do not conflate this with me wanting to fight community or market demand issues of inflated ilvl requirements or gear prices. I don't give a damn about either.

I'm asking for one thing only: SEPARATE CAPS. Or, just as you've quoted—

the option to commit to more than one class if I have the time and resources to do so. The specifics of how it's actually achieved isn't important, just the point of being able to play and progress on more than one class at something other than a snail's pace.

...And really, how would that possibly hurt you? Maybe if you're a crafter and your server's still RMT-flooded enough to make massive profits each, that could be a downer. But otherwise? What is this fear?... Because if it's not an actual fear or an attempt to protect your interests and preferences, you're interjecting with something irrelevant and probably knowingly incorrect.

The entire progression of every tier is the movement FROM the uncapped currency. By being limited to that currency, you are literally unable to progress in that tier. And yes, crafted gear bumps you up 10 ilvl from that floor, effectively more with a pentameld, but that's still highly limited relative to the 30 to 35-higher ceiling for that leg of the game. There is no carrot-and-stick purpose to each tier but to achieve BiS within it. And that progress is reset with the following tier, save for the rollover accelerating your next series of acquisitions. You're acting like this is sufficient to participate, but it is literally leaving you out of the running, capped by the starting line.

[Paladinleeds]

That's easier said than done when a typical Lakshimi/Susano Ex farm requests i318 or higher

And what's to stop those players below i318 from setting up their own farm group? Unless you're doing it in the middle of the night for that server's playerbase, at least on the Chaos datacentre, they WILL fill up even with the lower ilvl requirement. I'm neither for nor against the caps being raised, but the fact current PFs say "i318+ or GTFO" IS negated by the fact you can set up your own PF. Sure, your progress might be slower, but you can still farm.

[jameseoakes]

And what's to stop those players below i318 from setting up their own farm group? Unless you're doing it in the middle of the night for that server's playerbase, at least on the Chaos datacentre, they WILL fill up even with the lower ilvl requirement. I'm neither for nor against the caps being raised, but the fact current PFs say "i318+ or GTFO" IS negated by the fact you can set up your own PF. Sure, your progress might be slower, but you can still farm.

just had a look on PF on Chaos only one extreme group wants more than 310 both fights should be doable in less than 310 if the groups knows what it is doing.

[Shurrikhan]

You never specifically mentioned Savage, thus I answered both it and regular content can be done on any job.

I specified Savage because you wrote it there. And your assertion is as much a half-truth now as then. Behind after a certain point into the tier the community WILL come to leave you unless you focus your gear into a specific gear type. Yes, you can raid as whatever you like when gear is barely raised from the uncapped tome's level of gear. But that gap will increase, and item levels will become unreachable without dedicating a higher and higher cumulative portion of gear to a single gear type. You do NOT have indefinite access to Savage as an alt (unless running with friends who will accept below average ilvls). That is simple fact. Look at the item levels near the end of any given tier. They are often high enough for even mostly main-only characters to be unable to continue waiting on BiS raid drops, forcing them to spend currency to meet the requests of a PF rather than saving it for a secondary's BiS currency gear, to continue to join PFs. Without any raid drops, many PFs will assume the ilvl of all crafted slots + the entirety of your weekly-capped currency (assuming weapon or chest/legs first) have been spent on a single gear type just to join. This makes it difficult to maintain permissible gear levels for those who are taken as one type one week and another the next (i.e. static-less players who have time enough to grind for gear, but not time enough in exact consistent overlap with a specific 7 other players).

And by doing that, who is queuing into the 24 Man raid come 4.1?

(24-man raids) This is not a new issue, nor would separate caps extend it if the 24-mans actually provided benefits to everyone in the first place. Consider who among single-job players are going to do 4.1 at all when they offer inferior—not even alternatives but outright ilvl-inferior—loot to what they'd already gained last tier? They'll grab whatever twine/coats they still need and then they're done.

That issue's already come up in plenty of threads since Syrcus Tower, and the leading suggestion's been the same: give it the same ilvl as the latest weekly gear and make it upgradeable (which would affect ilvl growth rates), or make it upgradeable via capped currency in a way that essentially absorbs the difference in cost over ilvl growth (which would not).

A separate currency for each role also benefits tanks and healers significantly more as they share gear whereas DPS are split into four categories. Furthermore, how wouldn't this speed up the process substantially? I cap without even intending to on Wednesday because of raid.

Which is all the more crucial when you only have the one pool of currency and raid loot to split among all of them. Damn right you're going to prefer what gives you multiple jobs in one. How, how is this possibly a unique or novel concern? That IS XIV in a nutshell. That is gear types. They are not equal to the number of roles except in "AF" weekly cap tiers. I think this has been the case long enough to recognize this fact as less than a Doomsday event. If you believe there are improvements possible to it to bring it more in line with the number of roles, I'm all ears, but this concern is entirely tangential.

Furthermore, how wouldn't this speed up the process substantially? I cap without even intending to on Wednesday because of raid. That means I have five days to cap on tanks, heals and whatever else I fancy-- roles that normally only receive tomestone gear later are now apart of my weekly (bi-weekly) ritual. Adding to the fact I would also be guaranteed loot from Savage each week, plus the additional pages and possibly upgrade items and I can assure you I won't only have my tanks and heals at max ilvl, they'll be full BiS in three months.

I never said it wouldn't speed up the process of gearing alts substantially. I relish the idea. I said it wouldn't speed up the process of gearing your MAIN. What you could do for your main now, with n (number of gear types you care to gear) multiples of time you could do for the rest. Is this complicated? The basic idea is that if you could have a BiS main in 3 weeks before, with 4x the total time spent you could have 4 BiS gear types under what I'm proposing.... Assuming no additional changes, if you overcap by more over a given week than n times your daily roulette bonuses, it will be faster than that basic n multiplier. If not, then then time required would be greater than given by a simple multiplier.

Now 4.1 rolls around and I have seven jobs fully geared; they are the only jobs I care to play. That means I have no incentive to run roulettes anymore, no incentive to keep killing Omega barring speed kills and the like and no incentive to run Ivalice.

And in the meantime, you actually didn't quit after gearing a single job, waiting until post-tier farm groups to bother with alts, you participated in far more raids, and ran far, far more dungeons, while Ivalice gives later-upgradable gear alternatives to your rollover savage gear so that if you're truly fanatical about BiS across all those alts you'll be running that for n pieces of loot per week... Admittedly, perhaps I'm not thinking vividly about the queues yet, but I fail to see how that broad picture has lost anything. What fixes 24-mans for BiS single-job players also fixes it for separately capped alts.

:: My only fear in this would be that the ability to grind out so much gear would inflate gear requirements to a point where casual players would be left behind. But the thing is we're already on the brink of that even when gearing just 1-2 jobs, and that same system punishes spreading that gear around. No other MMO does that. Anywhere else, what you play (and how much thereof) is what you get. What would be so wrong with that being the case for XIV?

The fact you can get around these limitations on a separate character is irrelevant when only hardcore raiders do it. Put simply, the devs don't care because the amount of people willing to exploit that loophole are so few, it doesn't upset their system.

If the amount of people willing to take advantage of their full gearing opportunities are too few to be concerned with them, why would it suddenly be a new and rampant concern that... a few people are willing to take advantage of their full gearing opportunities, minus the 1000-character edit, so to speak? The two situations are identical, save that it's costing less data on SE's end and more convenient on our end (unless needing that extra inventory space).

[Shurrikhan]

I'm thinking of working on a gear progression model and just showing that to people, since it seems people are simply not understanding what the main point is from not liking change. Need some ideas though, you got any?

My thoughts on it are still rather up in the air. To be honest, when I start into a large design idea, it rarely tries to achieve just the one thing I originally intended—a bad habit. For instance, what I have so far, something of a "Prestige" system, not only includes categorical allocations to gate the "any given" repository of gear while allowing equitable (not just equal or shared) gating for any other repository, but it also adjusts how gear is rewarded and what all awards progress towards it (e.g. achievements, challenge modes, and with adjustments for various forms of scaling, and so forth to spice up what essentially amounts to tome-grinding, in order to make the increased hours of grinding possible feel less grindy).

[Shurrikhan]

And what's to stop those players below i318 from setting up their own farm group? Unless you're doing it in the middle of the night for that server's playerbase, at least on the Chaos datacentre, they WILL fill up even with the lower ilvl requirement. I'm neither for nor against the caps being raised, but the fact current PFs say "i318+ or GTFO" IS negated by the fact you can set up your own PF. Sure, your progress might be slower, but you can still farm.

Now, please do not conflate this with me wanting to fight community or market demand issues of inflated ilvl requirements or gear prices. I don't give a damn about either.

My point is and has only ever been that these are issues faced only by gear types linked to the same character. I find it contradictory that trying to make use of the one unique convenience of this game actually disadvantages you.

Sure, you can make a new PF because you can't keep up with the gear levels that are expected by that point going through the given tier. That's beside the point. The point is, each character can only fully support one gear type, disadvantaging alts in a way that playing XIV like any other MMO (essentially playing XIV like... a non-XIV) circumvents. It makes no more sense for that to be the case than that it does that I'll have to edit this post, cut its contents to sub-1k characters, and repost it, just because of an arbitrary 1k cap. They're counter-intuitive and add awkward circumventing steps to supply the same freedom one would normally expect.

You do realize if they uncapped the highest level tomes for gear, then you would get 10 tomes per dungeon and gear would be double the cost right? thats exactly what they did with yellow scrips.

You think you are complaining now about having to do dungeons repeatedly? Just see how much you would hate it then lol

TLDR: if you think the amount of tomes you'd get from roulettes/dungeons would stay the same if they uncapped it, you are oh so very wrong.

Not asking to uncap. Have not once done that.

Separate caps, equivalent to if done across multiple characters. Not no caps. Separate. Not none. Using multiple characters would circumvent weekly caps' effect on gearing a single job. Nor would this.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

You do realize if they uncapped the highest level tomes for gear, then you would get 10 tomes per dungeon and gear would be double the cost right? thats exactly what they did with yellow scrips.

You think you are complaining now about having to do dungeons repeatedly? Just see how much you would hate it then lol

TLDR: if you think the amount of tomes you'd get from roulettes/dungeons would stay the same if they uncapped it, you are oh so very wrong.