Shirk is amazing. (Ethics)

[SpookyGhost]

He is saying the benefit to running shirk is so minimal if you have two competent tanks its pointless to run it at all i agree aswell, tank swaping has been in ff for eons, and they weren't forgiving tank swaps either they were tank swaps if failed the mt will die leaving the raid and OT in a precarious position, he's not saying shirk is useless he saying its may aswell be if people know what they are doing.

Oh man you're right I didn't actually read his full post, he's just wrong. Phew, I thought I was just misunderstanding something.

[Kabooa]

Gotta get that sweet Interject

[SpookyGhost]

Gotta get that sweet Interject

Nah man, gotta have Anticipation so that you can mitigate those pesky auto-attacks.... maybe. Or Awareness so you can maybe mitigate a crit. Or Ultimatum so you can... uh... erm...

[FPZ]

2 Of your points are the same.
3 Out of 4 of your points require 1 or both tanks to be bad.
And lastly, no it does not allow you to start the fight without tank stance.

As for the dps gain portion wouldn't taking about cd that reducing damage taken be a better dps gain due to the ability to stay out of tank stance longer?
I have got to say people are going about like we needed this for the past 3 years, tank swap is easy and so far remains to be easy shirk is a wasted slot mainly because of the job that it does can be handled with provoke which your bringing anyways, regardless of circumstance or comp or the fight.

Which allows you to put lets see any other role skill in that slot.
Redundant utility is just that redundant.

Nitpicking because you can't counter it?
Another immature response with no hard information to back it up, nice job ignoring my post.
Lastly, go research a little more. Non tank stance openers are very well being done. Again, please research before you comment, it really shows your inexperience with the tanking meta when you try to state your opinion so blindly.

Your comment about replacing Shirk with a mitigation role skill portrays to me that you don't really tank at a competitive level, otherwise you'd know we have an ample amount of mitigation to deal with boss damage coming from our other 3 role skill slots and our base cooldowns. Combined with the boss meta damage of slow damage and big hits, this gives us more than enough to deal with the current fights.

I use Shirk and will always advise other tanks to use it. I also will go out on a limb and say I'm a lot better at tanking than you, since, you know, you like to call people "bad" on a whim, prove me wrong and entertain me oh anti shirk master tank \o/.

Since you ignored most of my points and couldn't provide a logical reply, I won't be replying to you any further at the risk of it being pointless, unless you can show me some hard facts and research like a "good" player.

[Mnemosynia]

Nitpicking because you can't counter it?
Another immature response with no hard information to back it up, nice job ignoring my post.

Shirk was not needed, all you needed to do was drop tank stance (if you were in it) have the OT Provoke and do one aggro combo.
Or If you werent in tank stance go into your dps rotation, have OT provoke and use aggro combo he may have needed to enter tank stance he may not depending on his damage.

Any tank that runs shirk is running it because they have no idea how to play a tank in an optimal way it is not a dps gain it's simply a way for a tank to be less mindful. To think that they gave tanks shirk instead of a role skill charge or maybe damage share or something. Nope they give us a tool that tanks were existing fine without.

And if any of you say no we needed it sophia ex was a perfect example of tank doing massive amounts of tank swaps with out shirk the only purpose I see it have is what the OP did which troll baddies and trash talkers for being assholes.



So you to find the skill useful u have to be playing next to an underperforming tank whilst blowing provoke which is extremely important cd if something were to go wrong like the MT dying and you need to pick up aggro before the boss kills other members of the raid.

I copied and pasted my first response since you can't be bothered to read earlier point, which you decided to not reply to that instead you choose the one below instead which i find interesting.

I cleared everything in HW including a12s sophia ex even went back to do a couple of coils sync for mentoring rights.

Also lastly saying i can't counter you post while countering your post and pointing out what quams i have with each of your post is not countering a post I see. I think your a good player but critical thinking and theory crafting certainly isn't your strong point. Let me ask you this.

Do you think with shirk Coils or fights like shiva ex or sophia ex would it be noticably easier for the entire group that includes you. How marginal is that benefit. Would awareness have been better instead for heavy hitters like bahamut and Alexander, or even ultimatum with the add phase for shiva or countless other fight with them would would allow your dps to unload much faster

I'd seriously like an answer to that, and no making redundant points again tyvm.

PS you just spouted alot of nonsense with nothing backing it up btw, saying my post isnt logical without a basis either and assuming i don't know what i'm talking about with out even looking at my lodestone at that as well, also where are your hard facts btw i have 4 years of tank swaps with out shirk behind me from different states of the game with different classes and different players doing it, you have basically your opinion. And i highly doubt your better at tanking then me if you need shirk i can tank swap without my hand being held very easily you can take shirk if you have an issue with that.

[Lyrai_Celestine]

I find this impressive. I've only learned about how to use Shirk well when I was in a learning party of Susano EX.

I didn't have a problem of tank swapping at all back in HW, but at that learning party that time, I was confused why Susano was still targetting the MT after I provoked him. Perhaps my gear was considerably weaker than his.

So, I decided that, in order to make sure my provoke really works, I decided to put Shirk into role skills replacing Ultimatum.

/ac "Shirk" <2>
Will use it on the person second on your pt list

/ac "Shirk" <tt>
Will cast on target of target which should be main tank

I'll just quote a macro for it, kudos to you~

... and from what this topic suggests, another use of Shirk is to probably let a douchebag-who-won't-use-Diversion eat it. I find this topic amusing, I like how we're discussing both the skill and the ethnics. Let them cry if they deserve it and happy tanking!

[Hruodig]

2 Of your points are the same.
3 Out of 4 of your points require 1 or both tanks to be bad.
And lastly, no it does not allow you to start the fight without tank stance.

As for the dps gain portion wouldn't taking about cd that reducing damage taken be a better dps gain due to the ability to stay out of tank stance longer?
I have got to say people are going about like we needed this for the past 3 years, tank swap is easy and so far remains to be easy shirk is a wasted slot mainly because of the job that it does can be handled with provoke which your bringing anyways, regardless of circumstance or comp or the fight.

Which allows you to put lets see any other role skill in that slot.
Redundant utility is just that redundant.

So instead of taking shirk, you're taking...what? What is more beneficial to tank dps than being able to tank swap without doing an aggro combo, being able to swap while staying in dps stance? Having to do less aggro combos overall?

Fucking baffling

[SpookyGhost]

IDo you think with shirk Coils or fights like shiva ex or sophia ex would it be noticably easier for the entire group that includes you. How marginal is that benefit. Would awareness have been better instead for heavy hitters like bahamut and Alexander, or even ultimatum with the add phase for shiva or countless other fight with them would would allow your dps to unload much faster

1.) Awareness is good, but situational. It isn't really useful vs Bahamut or Alexander since those fights have predictable damage and you had enough HP to survive a low mitigation buster + a crit auto with plenty of health to spare (especially vs Alex since everyone was wearing VIT). It's useful in fights that have 100% crit (shiva, T11) and fights that have high crit bits (A8S). In those cases I'd give up Conva for Awareness as I find Shirk + X will give higher returns than Awareness + Conva.

2.) I haven't actually tried using Ultimatum, but to my knowledge it works like Provoke aka +1 aggro over everything. Does it have some crazy huge range that would let you hit every add when they spawn in Shiva? Because that's the only argument I can see for that.

[Mnemosynia]

So instead of taking shirk, you're taking...what? What is more beneficial to tank dps than being able to tank swap without doing an aggro combo, being able to swap while staying in dps stance? Having to do less aggro combos overall?

Fucking baffling

Rampart
Lv. 8 Ability Instant 90s Reduces damage taken by 20%.
Duration: 20s

Provoke
Lv. 16 Ability Instant 40s Gesture threateningly, placing yourself at the top of a target's enmity list

Convalescence
Lv. 20 Ability Instant 120s Increases own HP recovery via healing magic by 20%.
Duration: 20s

Reprisal
Lv. 32 Ability Instant 60s Lowers target's damage dealt by 10%.
Duration: 5s

Awareness
Lv. 36 Ability Instant 120s Nullifies chance of suffering critical damage.
Duration: 25s


Now i guess ill have to explain why because the critical thinking portion of you head doesn't seem to be intact so we can prolly agree that Rampart, Conval, Provoke, and reprisal are must haves right? If we can't don't reply to this we already disagree i think you should never comment on role skills ever again due to your lack of general understanding of how tank mechanics work and the flow of tanking. So now ill have to justify Awareness or Anticipation although i didn't list it ill explain why it has a slot.

Point 1, AOE pulls under awareness makes the healers life atleast 50% easier allowing your healer to dps which will allow more overall dps to your group your not the only in the party CONTRARY to the believe of many of you tanks here YOU ARE ON A TEAM.


Point 2, Out side of aoe clears awareness has more consistency of usage for maintaining healthy hp and damage with it being situtational, your only using shirk for tank swaps and/or if your tank is bad and nothing else, if your MTing awareness is pretty much good all thoughtout the fight because you could be crit at anytime now awareness is a net gain as long as your MTing i've tanking many raid and dungeons an i can say its very rare to not see myself get crit by a boss atleast 2 times in 25seconds you avoid 1 crit awareness has now become usefull.

On Anticipation, Its really only good for aoe pulls i dont find it good for bosses but if the rng gods are with you this can mitigate almost as much damage as shadow skin keep that in mind.

Now the fact i had to explain this to you makes me believe that many of you tanks are so self absorbed you can't see the benefits of taking less damage over a longer period of time versus doing more damage in a shorter period of time which is generally circumstantial based on the fight and the skill of the MT.

1.) Awareness is good, but situational. It isn't really useful vs Bahamut or Alexander since those fights have predictable damage and you had enough HP to survive a low mitigation buster + a crit auto with plenty of health to spare (especially vs Alex since everyone was wearing VIT). It's useful in fights that have 100% crit (shiva, T11) and fights that have high crit bits (A8S). In those cases I'd give up Conva for Awareness as I find Shirk + X will give higher returns than Awareness + Conva.

2.) I haven't actually tried using Ultimatum, but to my knowledge it works like Provoke aka +1 aggro over everything. Does it have some crazy huge range that would let you hit every add when they spawn in Shiva? Because that's the only argument I can see for that.

I disagree a crit punishing heat from alexander savage even in a vit meta was devastating i had 35k hp with food etc and if i took a crit punishing heat from alexander it always put me close enough on edge to push that living dead button.

Ultimatum is 5yards not wide but if everyone runs some what close to you, you could use it and immediately have aggro of the group. Let me add as a DRK player its the same raidus as unleash so i'm used to using short ranged radial aoes.

[Hruodig]

Now i guess ill have to explain why because the critical thinking portion of you head doesn't seem to be intact so we can prolly agree that Rampart, Conval, Provoke, and reprisal are must haves right? If we can't don't reply to this we already disagree i think you should never comment on role skills ever again due to your lack of general understanding of how tank mechanics work and the flow of tanking. So now ill have to justify Awareness or Anticipation although i didn't list it ill explain why it has a slot.

Point 1, AOE pulls under awareness makes the healers life atleast 50% easier allowing your healer to dps which will allow more overall dps to your group your not the only in the party CONTRARY to the believe of many of your tanks here YOU ARE ON A TEAM.


Point 2, Out side of aoe clears awareness has more consistency of usage for maintaining healthy hp and damage with it being situtational, your only using shirk for tank swaps and/or if your tank is bad and nothing else, if your MTing awarness is pretty much good all thoughtout the fight because you could be crit at anytime now awareness is a net gain as long as your MTing i've tanking many raid and dungeons an i can say its very rare to not see myself get crit by a boss atleast 2 times in 25seconds you avoid 1 crit awareness has now become usefull.

On Anticipation, Its really only good for aoe pulls i dont find it good for bosses but if the rng gods are with you this can mitigate almost as much damage as shadow skin keep that in mind.

Now the fact i had to explain this to you makes me believe that many of you tanks are so self absorbed you can't see the benefits of taking less damage over a longer period of time versus doing more damage in a shorter period of time which is generally circumstantial based on the fight and the skill of the MT.

So forfeit one of the best raid dps-increasing abilities tanks have been given for a 2 minute long cd that lasts for 25 seconds? Something that only MIGHT be beneficial? Or a minute long cd which, again, MIGHT be beneficial? I really don't think you've done any high-end tanking if you think this is a good idea. Take the guaranteed benefit over a potential one, every single time. And in case you're wondering, yes: dps is king. Kill the encounter faster, healers have to heal less. Crazy how that works.