Switching mains to a tank role. What is wrong with warr?

[DWolfwood]

What are you on about, mate? Warrior is in a very bad spot right now...

This is the kind of attitude I'm talking about with people who make it out to be way worse than it is. I don't contest that WAR brings no utility, but it has extremely solid mitigation and DPS. "Bringing" a WAR and "playing" WAR are very different things, and WAR is currently extremely fun to me right now. They're all considerably more fun than their 3.x counterparts in my opinion.

As for why you'd bring a WAR, well it has the highest DPS potential for starters, on top of having the best Physical mitigation toolkit. I'm sure they'll get a utility buff down the road, and I think they should consider making it easier for average players, because they kind of had the floor ripped out from under them.

[YitharV2]

This is the kind of attitude I'm talking about with people who make it out to be way worse than it is. I don't contest that WAR brings no utility, but it has extremely solid mitigation and DPS. "Bringing" a WAR and "playing" WAR are very different things, and WAR is currently extremely fun to me right now. They're all considerably more fun than their 3.x counterparts in my opinion.

As for why you'd bring a WAR, well it has the highest DPS potential for starters

War is still viable, but same can be said for Scholar.

Yes, Scholar is still viable. But it's inefficient (in my opinion, remember - you can disagree all you like) and not very fun.

If it's fun for you great, but a lot of us don't find it fun anymore. See reddit comment by a really good tank mentor.

Hmm...
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/15#b...l&spec=Paladin
https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/15#b...l&spec=Warrior



That being said, the difference probably doesn't matter to the average player, just wondering where you're getting this "highest DPS potential" from.


Edit: Just fyi you can look at DPS w/o Balance. And the highest Paladin DPS for Susano is higher the highest Warrior DPS for Susano. So even if "potentially" Warrior DPS is better, if no one can pull it off, it means crap.

[Venoshock]

snip

Yeah, highest DPS potential by like what, 100 dps? and that's if you manage to pull off the rotation 100% perfectly no messing up which as it currently stands is very and unnecessarily difficult to do lol. That's a HUGE problem. Yeah it had loads of CDs, but so what? If the other tanks can mitigte through tank busters and everything else then who cares about the load of CDs it has. The other Tanks (paladin mostly) brings its enough CDs currently + party buffs. Again, that 100 or so extra dps that warrior has to bust its ass off to even brag about isn't worth it lol and the same with DRK, admittedly I haven't got it to level 70 yet (only level 62) so I can't comment too much on it, but I know (my static leader is a DRK) for a fact drk has an easy rotation - far easier than warrior and has a shield that they can use on party members which helps a lot for tank busters.

But no, it's cool, keep thinking warrior is somewhat alright, when it absolutely isn't lol.

In HW, DRK was the hardest tank to play well, but once you mastered it, the class was absolutely fantastic, fun and just (imo as warrior main lol) the best tank class, fell cleaves was great but the fluidity of DRK mad me feel jealous oof my static leader. In SB, warrior...same thing difficult to play but for what??? nothing. That's why people are pissed off.

[DWolfwood]

That being said, the difference probably doesn't matter to the average player, just wondering where you're getting this "highest DPS potential" from.

See the problem with people just blindly linking and sharing the manner in which a few people "analyze" data is that they're not understanding it to begin with. 95th percentile doesn't tell you the DPS potential for a job. You have to look at max values and then cull the buffs like The Balance/etc from them.

You don't balance job DPS potential by any percentile, you balance it based on maximum output. If the 95th, 75th, or 50th percentile rankings don't match up with the maximum damage output potentials, what you have is a difficult job to play. WAR was ridiculously easy in 3.x, so I understand that a lot of players are going to be upset when all of a sudden they're playing the most difficult tank. Cue BRD 3.0 changes.

I've done extensive testing on all 3 tanks, and analyzed the data on FFLogs, and WAR is still top DPS by a decent margin. Again, I realize it's not easy, but we're looking at two different things here. I will agree it could use some kind of quality of life improvement, but the suggestions you see all throughout this thread and most threads would simply make WAR vastly OP once again. I don't think we'll see a considerable job overhaul regarding WAR for awhile, so it is what it is for now and the best we can hope for is more utility, and just accept that it's a difficult job to play for the time being.

Edit - I feel like this should be implied, but since you linked what you did in the first place, I'm guessing it needs to be pointed out. Look at the buffs each of those top ranked players had. The WAR had 42.51% Balance uptime along with their Ninja, showing us that the WAR didn't have Enhanced Balance. If you look at the PLD, it had 86.82% uptime, compared with their SAM and RDM who had 0% balance uptime, showing that the PLD had Enhanced Balance that entire time.

Again, it takes some basic degree of analytical skills, but too many people don't know what they're talking about.

Yeah, highest DPS potential by like what, 100 dps?...

Yeah it had loads of CDs, but so what? If the other tanks can mitigte through tank busters and everything else then who cares about the load of CDs it has...

I know (my static leader is a DRK) for a fact drk has an easy rotation...

In HW, DRK was the hardest tank to play well, but once you mastered it, the class was absolutely fantastic...

4 points to dicuss here:

1. Yeah, 100 DPS is a good margin, but without sharing exact numbers just yet, WAR's is higher than that in all my testing. I'll say what I've said over and over again, WAR just needs utility with some quality of life improvement since the average player is having great difficulty. It does not need any kind of DPS buff whatsoever. A big factor people also forget is that PLD DPS plummets when they use Clemency and Passage of Arms.

2. WAR has loads of CDs it can rotate, enough that it makes it the best MT for physical damage currently, and that's nothing to brush aside.

3. DRK's rotation in 4.0 was much easier than it is now in 4.01, but it still has the challenge of having a high skill ceiling. I honestly can't even tell you which is harder at this point because I don't have a final proven "best" rotation for WAR, but I find it easy to out DPS DRK as WAR. I like them both a lot compared to what they were in 3.x for different reasons. You'll see that using the Blackest Night on CD and never capping on MP/Bloodgauge while also never eating into your GCD is not as "braindead" as some would think. And it's a hell of a lot more fun than just weaving random double OGCDs like we did in 3.x, which was the only "challenge" for DRK back then.

4. WAR is experiencing much the same as DRK in HW. It's the hardest to play, and people have this notion that it lost all its synergy, when it just changed significantly. It's actually extremely rewarding and the synergy is still there, it just lost the extremely low skill floor.

[Venoshock]

snip

1. 100 DPS is a good margin, yeah but you have to bust your ass of to acheive it when with the other tow tanks you do not have to. This is my point. The rotation isn't clear cut for this class, it's all dependant on phase changes, sudden phase pushes, how much rage you have left at the time, what CDs are up (becaue they don't allign well...inner release + berzerk). You also say that it needs QoL buffs and not DPS buffs...(which I believe it needs both) which QoL buffs do you want it to get? I'm genuinely interested.

2. WAR does indeed have loads of CDs that can be rotated, which in turn does make it a great main tank....but again, paladin and drk can mitigate all incoming damage just fine..so who even cares about its extra CDs, especially after prog? That's the same issue white mages had vs astrologians, white mage had the most powerful heal...bu astros could heal content just fine + bring the utility, so who gave a crap about the extra heals whm brings?

3. As i said, i'm not going to comment on DRK too much as I haven't played the class at level 70 yet. No comment.

4.There is no 'notion' that warrior lost its synergy, it still does have its synergy with its slashing debuff but that's it. It does absolutely nothing else but DPS. The synergy it did have was for prog anyway, storms path + reprsal, slahsing debuff was much more valuable back in HW since warrior was the only class that brought it AND was a part of its roation thus creating synergy there, it generated the most aggro, which helped drk and raidwide dps overall when the warrior was pulling..i think i might be mssing a few, but thats off the top of my head. At the moment, they've lost all of that synergy, and they do nothing now but overwork themselves to dish out a measly 100 more dps, and that's if the perform perfectly.

You can't have a tank that has 0 utilty and not much more of a dps advantage - which they have to work really hard for. This is why people are pissed off lol. I don't get why you can't see it.

[YitharV2]

You can't have a tank that has 0 utilty and not much more of a dps advantage - which they have to work really hard for. This is why people are pissed off lol. I don't get why you can't see it.

Nah, man, don't you know, Warrior would be overpowered if it got buffs. :^)

[DWolfwood]

You can't have a tank that has 0 utilty and not much more of a dps advantage - which they have to work really hard for. This is why people are pissed off lol. I don't get why you can't see it.

How can you keep saying I don't see it when I'm crying out for more utility on WAR?

[silentwindfr]

do all tank need to bring..."utility"? i means what is the role of a tank?
1) generate enough enmity for keep the aggro over the group
2) survive any mechanic that will kill the group or himself.

dps and other stuff are secondary, if not irrevelant with this expansion. a warrior stance dancing in position of tank? = death simple as this. i will take suzano as example... and use the damage i take as paladin as reference. under shield oath the damage from suzanoo in auto attack can critical at 11k and in first part under cd and with block assault hit for 18-19k.... if you are in dps stance = it means you have less hp and take less heal for.... try to add dps where you don't need to add dps.

yoshida have said it, they don't take in account anymore the dps of the tank and healer for the dps check.

the trouble of the war is bound to a trouble that every tank have... the low attack we do have now... because all our accessory are without str. don't get me wrong i feel too the drk and war need to do more damage than paladin, on this i'm with you.
but do every tank need to have utility? nope... each tank have his role. the trouble lie in the way SE see the tank, making drk and war feeling strange since them dps is not relevant anymore for the content.

because all the boost of damage is in pourcentage, since our damage don't change a lot (yes we have more or less attack than a dps 60 in full 270) 20% of low damage is still low damage.

i feel anyway, the player need to understand that the game is not like before anymore, stance dancing and such are not working anymore and that all.

[HoodRat]

See the problem with people just blindly linking and sharing the manner in which a few people "analyze" data is that they're not understanding it to begin with. 95th percentile doesn't tell you the DPS potential for a job. You have to look at max values and then cull the buffs like The Balance/etc from them.

You can filter results by dps without balance. War still isn't top.

dps and other stuff are secondary, if not irrevelant with this expansion. a warrior stance dancing in position of tank? = death simple as this. i will take suzano as example... and use the damage i take as paladin as reference. under shield oath the damage from suzanoo in auto attack can critical at 11k and in first part under cd and with block assault hit for 18-19k.... if you are in dps stance = it means you have less hp and take less heal for.... try to add dps where you don't need to add dps.

I've tanked it with full uptime on sword oath with no problems. In fact, the drk turtle tank in our group took much more damage than me because he thought being in grit meant he only needed to pop CDs for the tank buster. If you wanna know what tanks and healers are capable of, you can look at the speed run clears on fflogs. In both ex primals, both tanks can have full uptime on dps stance with all str accessories while their healers can do respectable dps (as in both healers combined do over 3k dps).

[Sarcatica]

WAR is in the current 2nd best tank to bring based on the top speedrun position. None of it matters if you aren't doing that, don't hear the sheeps telling you otherwise.

DRK is great to bring in a prog is what I feel. If you bring DRK, PLD as the other tank slot is a must. PLD/WAR comp requires you to know the whole fights, PLD's strength is the ability to do highest DPS (in optimized runs) which IMO also depends on the fights themselves. The current 2 EX fights have ridiculously high uptime on the bosses and less movements overall (Sprint makes PLD's GCDs smoother while going left and right during the Lightning dance in Susano EX for example), hence PLD is able to keep using their double buffs rotation. WAR is still fundamentally the same, what you need to know is that WAR is the most penalized tank for switching hence why you would want to stay in Deliverance from 0-100 of the fight, in the current best speedrun, tanks simply don't start pulling bosses in tank stance because of Shirk (really powerful) and NIN's Shadewalker. This is how both PLD and WAR are able to get their highest dps, however requires really good players to maintain high dps as tanks. DRK atm doesn't feel clunky but dps wise the lowest. This is mainly attributed to the potency per GCD, Bloodspiller is the highest potency (excluding the ever elusive Carve and Spit and the dot) but it's not as frequently up as PLD's Holy Spirit or Goring Blade and WAR's Fell Cleave or Upheaval. Souleater in a way is still your main combo to go with most of the time, so your overall dps is decided mostly by how much mana you can gain for more DA. Due to how Darkside and DA work, DRK's burst is only when your Blood Weapon and Delirium are up because that's where you get your huge DAs spam and your gauge fills up way quicker for DA'd Bloodspillers. This is where DRK's mana is the limit of their overall damage. Delirium needs to be buffed if SE wants to not touch WAR and PLD.

Overall play and main WAR if you like the job, UNLESS if you plan to clear Omega Savage in 1-2 weeks then you want to start levelling the other tank jobs to keep your options up.