DRK needs re-tuning/buffing.

[SyzzleSpark]

I want to revise my list of changes from the OP here, factoring in the fact that SE is very unlikely to actually add or replace whole skills outside of the expansion's initial patch. They've never done this before so I don't expect them to add Scourge back or give us a new defensive CD. So realistically, with that in mind:

Defensive:

Dark Mind:
Reduces magic vulnerability by 15% for 10s.
Dark Arts effect: Reduces all damage taken by 15% for 10s.
-This makes DAing this ability extremely worthwhile. For magic tank busters, you can probably keep it unboosted, but in between tank busters it becomes a really good cooldown for tanking out of stance, mitigating cleaves and AAs, etc. and still comes at a cost of DPS to balance it out.

Shadow Wall:
Reduces damage taken by 30% for 20s.
-As stated in the OP, this makes Shadow Wall unique and gives it its own strength compared to Vengeance and Sentinel.
-Alternatively, if we wanted to make it more like Vengeance (shorter recast, weaker, but with a DPS benefit...)
Shadow Wall:
Reduces damage taken by 30% for 10s. Recast time 150s.
Dark Arts effect: Gives 50 Blood Gauge.

Blood Price:
Restores partial MP when damage is taken for 15s and reduces damage taken by 10% (or increases parry rate by 40%)
Additonal Effect: Increases Blood Gauge by 1 immediately and another 4 over time while in battle.
Can only be used while under the effect of Grit.
-Since Blood Price is now locked behind Grit there is very little reason why it should not have a defensive benefit in the same way that Blood Weapon has an offensive benefit. If people feel this is unbalanced, I would be fine with them having the two skills share a cooldown to add an additional trade-off mechanic to the job, especially when factoring in a Blood Weapon change I've outlined below.

Abyssal Drain:
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 120 to the target and all enemies near it.
Dark Arts effect: Restores 1000% of the damage dealt as HP, divided by the number of targets hit.
-This makes Abyssal Drain an excellent Clemency equivalent. It cuts into our DPS just like Clemency does (or how Equilibrium does due to being Defiance locked) but provides us with snap-sustain. If this feels too unbalanced, it can keep its original 100% heal on every target while out of Grit, and lock the distributed 1000% effect behind Grit.

If these defensive buffs seem like too much in light of TBN, I would be okay with them increasing TBN's recast to, say 20 or 25s to make it less spammable. I feel like this would be a good QoL thing as well to reduce APM bloat. The power of and over-reliance on TBN right now makes our entire defensive cooldown suite feel incredibly lop-sided. The job doesn't feel good anymore defensively. It completely lacks the ability to smooth out incoming damage consistently and is extremely stop-start-stop-start with its mitigation as opposed to being able to level out the damage evenly and in a way healers can properly account for. TBN's stop-start nature makes our damage-taken unnecessarily spikey. We'll take the full brunt of incoming damage on our bare ass for 10s and then take no damage for 5s, as opposed to our HP just gradually falling slower in a way that healers can predict and deal DPS around.

As far as DPS....

After some thought, I don't think damage over time should be added to Bloodspiller or unboosted SE, because it would make our rotation unnecessarily rigid in terms of when you can use these abilities in terms of not clipping the DoT, so here is what I thought of instead.

Dark Passenger:
Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 150 to all targets in a line before you.
Additional effect: Damage over time with a potency of 70 for 15s.
No Dark Arts effect, MP cost returned to 1200.
-Because of the defensive buffs above and the fact that the blind still somewhat clashes with Blood Price, I decided to remove the Dark Arts effect. In exchange, the ability is now returned to its old MP cost, same recast time, and has the same total potency as Scourge. (150+(70*5)=500)

This would bring DRK's DPS up to an acceptable level to keep it competitive with PLD given its lesser utility.

Alternatively, they could do either of these instead:

Blood Weapon:
Additional effect: Increases Damage dealt by 15%.
-or-
Delirium:
Additional effect: Extends the timer of Blood Weapon by 8s and increases damage dealt by 30% for the duration.

Both of these would be roughly a 5% increase. (15% * (15s / 40s) = 5.6%) or (30% * (23s / 120s) = 5.7%)

These I feel are more interesting changes, but alternatively, they could simply buff several of our GCDs/oGCDs by 50-100 potency (as well as their DA effects, if applicable, to keep DA priority the same), or increase Darkside to 25%.

If it doesn't break its a major screw up (like we never had in our rotation before) and I can't stand mistakes. Losing a whole DA is a loss.

I think a possible solution to this is to have it return a % of Blood equal to the damage that was absorbed even if it didn't pop. But honestly, I like trade-offs, and the existing TBN mechanics are acceptable to me. People are complaining a lot about the job's low risk/reward and I feel like the risk of TBN not popping is an acceptable instance of that kind of risk/reward playstyle that still is present with the job.

[Falar]

YEah it is fine, I was just responding to the guy that made it sound like he uses it as a DCD and doesn't care if it pops.

[SyzzleSpark]

YEah it is fine, I was just responding to the guy that made it sound like he uses it as a DCD and doesn't care if it pops.

To be fair, it is really hard to have it not pop on someone else since it is only a 10% shield; if the MT takes any damage at all its going to pop. The only way you can screw this up is if you don't know the boss's rotation and put it up during a long cast time (I've done this a few times in o1-4, as many of the Omega bosses stop hitting the MT for several seconds while they use raid AoEs or mechanics that have cast times, and many of these cast times have seemed unusually long (4-5 seconds or more).

Once you know when these mechanics/casts will happen in the boss's rotation, I'd absolutely recommend keeping it on CD. I think once you've learned how to MT a particular fight, OTing it while managing TBN on the MT will be much easier since you know when all the damage happens/doesn't happen from a MT perspective.

EDIT: Another thing I have noticed is that while there is sometimes an animation delay with the shield actually applying, there seems to be an equal delay in it actually falling off. I've found that as long as the buff icon is still present when a boss starts its attack animation or finishes a cast bar, I will get the blood from TBN even if the buff itself falls off in between that moment and the moment when the damage (or lack thereof) registers on my character/the MT.
i.e.
- > cast TBN
- > boss finishes cast or starts animation before TBN falls off
- > TBN falls off
- > attack lands but still registers TBN
- > 50 blood

[Lyth]

I probably wouldn't pay 1 DA for 15% physical mitigation, especially when both TBN and Grit individually give greater DR for a lower net cost. As it is, I'd have a lot of trouble justifying DA DM in 4.0 for the 30% DR outside of multi-hit magical tankbusters, given that TBN and baseline DM usually give you more mitigation for a lower net cost on a single hit. I like Brannigan's suggestion from earlier in the thread about turning DA DM into raid-wide mitigation.

Shadow Wall doesn't do anything exciting, but it gets the job done. The only real way to improve on it is to either lower the recast or have it reflect damage, and the former is overkill with TBN. I feel that with the addition of Rampart to WAR, Vengeance is overtuned, so it's not really a great point of comparison. The main problem with DRK's mitigation is LD, which needs to be flat out reworked so that it doesn't arbitrarily penalise your healers. Both Hallowed and Holmgang are vastly superior for different reasons.

Blood Price is odd. Even if there's nothing actively happening (i.e. phase transition/animation), you gain 4 blood per tick so long as you're in combat, netting you about 20 blood. It's not worth swapping to Grit for, but if you are in Grit during a phase transition, it's basically free blood. It even seems to tick up while you're doing an ATE, such as Susano's sword. I think part of the problem is that they tuned it based on tanking multiple targets (you gain 0.05 DA/tick as opposed to BW's 0.2 DA/tick), so it tends to be a bit underwhelming against a slow hitting mob in single target. One possibility could be to remove the MP regen penalty of Darkside with it active, granting you 568 MP per tick passively. This would let you use it similarly to SAM or MNK's meditate ability during in-combat downtime to restore MP and blood. I don't think that simply adding DR to it will make it see more use, however.

As far as self-healing is concerned, the best solution is to allow Souleater's lifesteal to function out of Grit as well (or at the very least, let it function under BW). This not only removes the need for a Clemency or Equilibrium equivalent, but also offsets some of the passive DR advantage that PLD has from block. DA AD is extremely expensive healing (1.4 DA), and using it in single target as a self-heal seems to go against the spirit of its use.

I understand some of the concerns about DP, but I don't think that people are necessarily thinking about it correctly. Efficiency matters only in sustained encounters where you run the risk of running out of MP. Most AoE situations often are shorter, burn-orientated encounters which have you running a surplus of resources (i.e. you gain it faster than you can spend it). Potency per unit time is much more important than efficiency in these situations, because any MP gains when you're at cap are wasted. The main problem with DP is that there really isn't any situation where you'd want to use the baseline ability without DA, because it fits neither of those categories. I think they'd be much better off creating an MP efficient but low potency baseline DP for use in single target, and keep DADP as it is for use in multiple target/burn phases. Alternatively, just bake the DA cost into DP for simplicity, if there is nothing to be gained from the baseline ability.

[Xenosan]

Blood Price is odd...

I don't see them giving back or improving Blood Price MP returns, though that is a good idea allowing native regen.

As poignant as the BP nerf was though, seems clear they knew what they were doing and had their reasons for moving the MP restore to Grit Siphon. That's why I think some additional effect of a different sort is plenty warranted. I'm hoping for a damage reflect - because ..tl;dr.. I'm a DRK main, kek.

A passive DR improvement by buffing parry, and a RNG damage reflect on parry procs (Low Blow resets baked into the CD essentially). Make those PLDs jealous. But BP being only available in Grit, it has it's drawback to PLD/WAR Shield Swipe & Vengeance.

Its more DPS in tank stance. Regarding that: compared to WAR/PLD, DRK has to be in Grit more, so it feels justified. Higher tank-stance DPS is less of a perk, more a necessity (though really WAR -25% needs to be reduced, among other things). But also the fact that it is a lvl35 ability is why I'm eager to see any additional effect.



I believe Dark Knight and Machinist are the only jobs with just one lvl 50 ability. MCH needs the most TLC, so I don't know if seeing a new ability being introduced to either DRK/MCH or both isn't plausible. Curious it is that the other extra Job AST kept Synestry instead of it going to the Role pool (lolRescue).

[SyzzleSpark]

DRK has to be in Grit more

Wait... why? O.o

I probably wouldn't pay 1 DA for 15% physical mitigation, especially when both TBN and Grit individually give greater DR for less MP. As it is, I'd have a lot of trouble justifying DA DM in 4.0 for the 30% DR outside of multi-hit magical tankbusters, given that TBN and baseline DM usually give you more mitigation for a lower net cost on a single hit. I like Brannigan's suggestion from earlier in the thread about turning DA DM into raid-wide mitigation.

This is an excellent point that I haven't even considered. TBN+DM renders DADM pretty much obsolete right now, so the DA effect of that ability is pretty undertuned. Honestly after reading this I kinda wish they'd just redesign the ability entirely. I'm not a fan of the raidwide mitigation component suggestion simply because it doesn't fix either of the problems that I see with DRK right now; its DPS and personal mitigation. I don't really have a justification for it, I admit, but I just feel like what DRK needs isn't bordering-on-PLD-levels of utility. It needs more damage to make up for its lower utility, and it needs some sort of addition or buff to its defensive kit. Basically, in fights where DM isn't used, I find it... jarring... to rely solely on TBN for a full minute or more in between Rampart/Shadow Wall casts. I wish that the ability was not so lopsided, its powerful and that's great, but I would rather they increase its recast time a bit and redistribute that power into another CD to give us more options. Getting the most out of TBN requires a DRK to know a boss's rotation down to the last auto-attack which I honestly find a little silly, and an artificial illusion of depth/difficulty/complexity.

Anyway. I given that they've now established TBN as the standard for mitigation-to-mana, it seems like they need to add something equally powerful to DM in order to make it relevant. Since TBN basically defines DRK mitigation now, we're a shield tank, so my gut tells me DADM should just be DM with a TBN effect tacked on, that lasts longer but doesn't grant Blood. Powerful, sure, but for a DPS loss and a longer cooldown... idk.

Shadow Wall doesn't do anything exciting, but it gets the job done. The only real way to improve on it is to either lower the recast or have it reflect damage, and the former is overkill with TBN. I feel that with the addition of Rampart to WAR, Vengeance is overtuned, so it's not really a great point of comparison. The main problem with DRK's mitigation is LD, which needs to be flat out reworked so that it doesn't arbitrarily penalise your healers. Both Hallowed and Holmgang are vastly superior for different reasons.

Like I said in the OP, I feel like Shadow Wall was tuned in such a way to make up for the high uptime of Reprisal's personal mitigation. We're missing that -10% now. Sure we have TBN, but now PLD can block magic, WAR has Rampart... idk. Without the DD+Reprisal Combo, Shadow Wall feels extremely weak. It also occupies such a strange spot in our cooldown suite. Not all fights will be like Susano, surely, but in that particular fight I had Rampart+TBN for every buster and would look at Shadow Wall and be like... what do I do with this? Eventually I started using SW instead of Rampart every other TB, but then for certain rotations I'd have Rampart and other's I wouldn't. Again, the term lop-sided comes to mind.

LD... for once I can't really empathize. I'm fully aware of LD's shortcomings, but for whatever reason, in my personal experience it has never left me wanting. I think I'm less focused on it because it is an invuln and I'm more concerned about our high-uptime (or lack thereof) cooldowns.

Blood Price is odd. Even if there's nothing actively happening (i.e. phase transition/animation), you gain 4 blood per tick so long as you're in combat, netting you about 20 blood. It's not worth swapping to Grit for, but if you are in Grit during a phase transition, it's basically free blood. It even seems to tick up while you're doing an ATE, such as Susano's sword. I think part of the problem is that they tuned it based on tanking multiple targets (you gain 0.05 DA/tick as opposed to BW's 0.2 DA/tick), so it tends to be a bit underwhelming against a slow hitting mob in single target. One possibility could be to remove the MP regen penalty of Darkside with it active, granting you 568 MP per tick passively. This would let you use it similarly to SAM or MNK's meditate ability during in-combat downtime to restore MP and blood. I don't think that simply adding DR to it will make it see more use, however.

I think maybe I wasn't clear. My intention wasn't to make BP see more use it was just to add something to our kit that gives us an additional mitigation option at the cost of some DPS (being locked behind Grit), since all of the other tanks have something like this (Clemency, IB, Equil, even PoA). They all have that option to supplement their core cooldown suite with something extra if they are willing to sacrifice some damage, resources needed for damage, or go into tank stance. DRK doesn't really have that. It has 4 innate cooldowns and that's it. Both WAR and PLD have a powerful self heal and an extra albeit DPS inefficient mitigation tool.

As far as self-healing is concerned, the best solution is to allow Souleater's lifesteal to function out of Grit as well (or at the very least, let it function under BW). This not only removes the need for a Clemency or Equilibrium equivalent, but also offsets some of the passive DR advantage that PLD has from block.

This suggestion makes my heart sink to be honest. What Souleater's heal needs is power, not accessibility. And even then, its locked behind a combo so its rarely possible to time it for when you need it regardless of how much it heals. Many is the time on WAR for instance where I have popped the absolute bare minimum mitigation that I would require to survive (Thrill alone, even Foresight back in the day) and just Equil'ed myself right back up to a safe HP level. No biggie. I find it really cheap that we cannot do this. And if we could heal ourselves for a meaningful portion of our HP as opposed to having what basically amounts to a slow, combo locked regen that mostly just contributes to overhealing, it'd go a decent way towards alleviating your previous concerns about LD.

I understand some of the concerns about DP, but I don't think that people are necessarily thinking about it correctly. Efficiency matters only in sustained encounters where you run the risk of running out of MP. Most AoE situations often are shorter, burn-orientated encounters which have you running a surplus of resources (i.e. you gain it faster than you can spend it). Potency per unit time is much more important than efficiency in these situations, because any MP gains when you're at cap are wasted. The main problem with DP is that there really isn't any situation where you'd want to use the baseline ability without DA, because it fits neither of those categories. I think they'd be much better off creating an MP efficient but low potency baseline DP for use in single target, and keep DADP as it is for use in multiple target/burn phases.

My suggestions for DP where merely an example of a way to buff our DPS. I'm hard pressed to find someone that disagrees with the fact that having both less utility AND lower DPS than a PLD is textbook feelsbadman, and honestly since they aren't likely to add meaningful raid utility to either DRK or WAR post expac, the most logical thing to suggest seems to be DPS buffs. And I mean its just ridiculous from a thematic/lore standpoint. Why sacrifice a shield for a two-handed sword that deals less damage than a 1-hander? Why would 2-handed swords even exist in the game's universe from a technological standpoint? "Here's this two-handed, heavy sword that requires you to forego a shield, and yet you will take longer to kill monsters with it." Who would buy that? DRK should deal more damage than PLD. Everything else about PLD is better, but DRK has a big sword, so the most logical edge for it to have over PLD is DPS. Perhaps a more creative mind than me will have a better suggestion, but in terms of what the devs are realistically likely to add and suggestions they'll realistically respond to, a simple re-working of costs/potencies/percentages usually comes before adding whole new abilities/affects.

[Deathshiro]

Make
Bloodspiller
OGCD FOR HALONES SAKE.

[SyzzleSpark]

Make
Bloodspiller
OGCD FOR HALONES SAKE.

No. They should not do this. I like having my combo broken up by Bloodspillers, without it being on the GCD we really would be 1-2-3ing it. Also how are you playing the job, such that you feel you even would have room for Bloodspillers with all of the stuff that is already crammed in between our GCDs?

If the justification is that it would be a DPS gain, sure, but there are other ways to buff our DPS without making our GCD rotation even more faceroll than it already is and making our oGCD rotation even more busy and chaotic. Its a bad, poorly thought out suggestion that I do wish people would stop making.

[Deathshiro]

Snip

Eh it would be more fun for me personally, if anything it would just replace me pressing dark passenger and give me something else to do whilst spamming the 1-2-3 we have now. Just feels clunky to me personally, DRK to me was high apm explosiveness with Reprisal, billions of low blow procs, dark arting your soul eaters and carve and spits, etc. I see what you are saying though, I just like pressing buttons as fast as possible.

[Eliroth-Kaminari]

My ideas I have had reading all ppl thoughts.
Shadow all 3 min CD would be OK if it reflect back some kind of debut to boss example magic defence down. Why magic defence and not physical is to avoid it being used as berserk for self buff rather as raid synergy utility.

Other skill that could work whit that kind of change would be da dark passenger change blind effect to something that all so work in raids and benefit party not just you. If pld is defective utility tank then drk would be offensive utility tank. Whit our lack of defence it fits