Warrior and paying for skills the other two use for free, among other thoughts

[LupinS]

I'm sure its been mentioned before, but my biggest gripe with NewWar (like NewCoke, cause no one enjoyed that either) is options for aggro. I find quite often i have no other choice but to spam OP til the TP bank runs dry just maintain hate on everything in the area, and it is not nice at all when that has to happen. And this "WAR is only tank who can get TP back itself" rubbish makes me laugh, when i think that the 200 TP return ONLY comes back to us by swapping to deliverance (the non-tank stance). So you have to either sacrifice any beast you've built up just for enough TP to cover 1 full OP, or you watch as things start to drift away. "Well WAR has cyclone too, if you've had to use OP so much, use infuriate and use SC.." and yeah, we do have that option... once a minute. If you don't get all that aggro fast enough and your TP gets short, and you've already used infuriate you might as well watch the mobs lick their lips while they think about going for the rest of your party. 3.x WAR at least had the fall back of "if its going to pieces, flash spam to get build some TP. The beast gauge is dependant on TP, you run out of it and you cant build it. We know OP spam is not the way a WAR is meant to tank, but i dont see any of the other tanks hurt like the WAR is in these emergency situations.

Look at PLD - use flash, spend MP, gets MP back in their rotation should they need it...
Look at DRK - use unleash, spend MP, gets MP back in their rotation.
Anyone else see the issue... WAR cant spend TP and then get it back through rotation.

I just want to say, currently i dont swap stances: I struggle to find the time to swap or if do swap, it's where i am comfortable enough to say "yeah, that SAM is low enough on emnity, I think i can get a couple of rotations in and a FC off... ".. wow that WAR damage, am i right.... its so lucky i could do that 10 seconds worth of extra deeps before thinking i should get back in tank stance. I sure hope it was worth halving the beast twice or waiting until i had 0 so i dont lose anything.

And i think someone said it right earlier on that WAR just feels like paper now - im having to slap on defensive cooldowns like they are going out of fashion just on trash mob groups some times, something i regularly used to do... WHEN IN DELIVERANCE, but not in defiance. It just seems like I never leave the tank stance.. so bye bye fell cleave. Like alot of tank players, it is sad that gonna have to just PLD it as its what SE is making people have to do. Those PLD players who have been saying "well this is what it was like for us back in... " you did not have half of your set wasted. PLD was built to take damage, and from what I know of, it STILL did exactly that...

Personally, I would have liked a skill for WAR where you could pop it and bam, you got no TP cost for the next 10 seconds... go nuts (like a warrior is meant to). Or use it and watch your TP roar up like you've tapped into a hidden reserve. Put gauge and emnity builder on vengance. WAR is supposed to hit and be hit. Hell, even having Overpower apply a 10 second burn would make sense

[Reynhart]

Those PLD players who have been saying "well this is what it was like for us back in... " you did not have half of your set wasted.

For a lot of meaningfull content in 3.x, PLD's shield, Cover and RoH were useless, Tempered Will was ignored by a lot of knockback mechanics, you could forget Awareness and don't notice the difference, Shield Bash was laughable...

[P4X0R10N]

I like the 4 cleave or 6 cleave combo. Feels fun imo.

It's the weird losing rage for stance switching which feels janky.

And to be honest, the timing on 4 cleave is super easy, and even 6 cleave is not hard. Both with an upheaval thrown in.

I just wish there was no rage cost for going into deliverance.

[P4X0R10N]

Still hella janky.

Assuming absolutely nothing goes wrong, the rotation is ridiculously tight compared to what it was. The rotation in general was flipped completely on it's head, and if you mess up at all it's pretty easy to be on the wrong step of your rotation and suddenly you're missing cleaves- kind of similar to 3.0 dragoon I guess. It's tiresome and not what I signed up for. Our defensive capability is more or less the same, but the lifesteal being gone feels really really weird. Equilibrium is still kind of not really a very good option for snap enmity because of the swap cost. Pulling in deliverance is possible at equal gear levels to your party but early on it's really screwy and you're just gonna have a bad time. Inner Release... I never asked for this. Six cleaves is a meme, not fun.

The timing is pretty easy, yes even for 6 fc, if the boss doesn't move or there isn't too much massive aoe forcing me to move.

[P4X0R10N]

Just prep maim,

Then inner release, fc, upheaval, infuriate, fc, maim, path, fc x4.

I feel like the window of time allowing attacks to combo were increased in stormblood. So you can delay maim after the Hs for a long time. This allows you to hs, fc, up, infuriate, and fc again before needing to maim.

It's not bad.

[aleph_null]

Still hella janky.

Assuming absolutely nothing goes wrong, the rotation is ridiculously tight compared to what it was. The rotation in general was flipped completely on it's head, and if you mess up at all it's pretty easy to be on the wrong step of your rotation and suddenly you're missing cleaves- kind of similar to 3.0 dragoon I guess. It's tiresome and not what I signed up for.

On the contrary I found the new war rotation to be more engaging than the old 3.x rotation. The old rotation was pretty much spamming eye combo while using fell cleaves as soon as it's usable, while the new rotation lets you choose between using path combo for the extra gauge to use on onslaught when upheaval is on cooldown or using butcher's block for that extra potency and aggro you can use for shirk. Even infuriate usage could vary more than before, depending on how many fell cleaves you can use for the cd reduction. With the new gauge mechanic instead of wrath/abandon stacks which expire in 30s, you also have more choices to prepare for phase changes, you can plan to save certain amount of gauge to prepare for your next berserk. The main issue imo is that it doesn't really feel rewarding considering how complex the rotation is. Pld's new rotation is way simpler than war's and they do similar dps if not more.

[SyzzleSpark]

No one seems to be keeping a fair tally of what the tanks lost. So I'll do it.

PLD:
1. Rampart*
2. Convalescence**
3. Provoke*
4. Awareness***
5. The silence on Spirit's Within*
6. The RoH STR debuff
7. Stoneskin
Paladin's lost exactly 0 potency in their rotation in the transition from 3.x to 4.x at level 60.

From this we can see that almost everything PLD lost can be gotten back in some form or another. I'm not counting stoneskin here. It gets all of its cooldowns back, and Reprisal is a straight upgrade to RoH.

Before going into cross-role stuff, PLD has three cooldowns not counting its invuln: Sheltron, Bulwark, and Sentinel. Bulwark is RNG. However it has Clemency and PoA to (sort of?) make up for this, but they are DPS losses.

* - can be reacquired in cross-role
** - lost 10% via trait
*** - other tanks gained +10s on duration

WAR:
1. Foresight
2. Bloodbath
3. Brutal Swing**
4. Mercy Stroke
5. Fracture
6. The damage down debuff on Path
7. Infuriate usage out of combat
8. Unchained as a DPS gain assuming required Defiance usage

** - the stun can be reacquired but the potency is gone.

Rampart easily makes up for Foresight/Bloodbath. Low Blow somewhat makes up for Brutal Swing and Reprisal is an exceptable alternative to the Path debuff. The potency from Fracture and Mercy Stroke is gone.

Before going into cross-role stuff, WAR also, once again, has 3 cooldowns not counting its invuln: Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, and Raw Intuition. Raw Intuition only works on physical damage. However, WAR has access to IB and Equilibrium, however these are once again DPS losses to use, like Clemency and PoA.

DRK:

1. Shadowskin*
2. Dark Dance***
3. Reprisal**
4. Scourge
5. The INT debuff from Delirium
6. Low Blow**
7. Damage from Reprisal and Low Blow
8. Reprisal+Dark Dance synergy

* - Can be reacquired in cross-role.
** - Can be reacquired in cross-role, but the damage is gone.
*** - Dark Dance going into cross role is useless for the other two tanks, but combined with Reprisal, gutted DRK's mitigation sustain.

Once again, before going into cross-role, DRK has 3 cooldowns not counting its invuln: Dark Mind, The Blackest Night, and Shadow Wall. Dark Mind only works on magical damage. DRK has nothing innate to supplement this other than the passive healing from Souleater, which rarely makes a difference when it matters. DRK has no IB/Equil/Clemency equivalent, which is a huge hole in its mitigation suite.

Call me biased, but it looks like DRK needs buffing more than WAR does. Although they both need buffing overall.

Here's the thing: What PLD lost can be gotten back in cross role at the cost of nothing else. The CDs WAR lost are made up for by Rampart. DRK can get back what it lost, but it comes at the cost of not being able to use things that it previously had access to in cross-class. For example, if a DRK could take Rampart, Convalescence, Reprisal, Awareness, Provoke, and Anticipation, (6 abilities) it would have almost everything it lost but would have no CC or Shirk.

PLD can get everything it lost in terms of defensive CDs back with a mere 3 slots, as can WAR. PLD also didn't lose anything to cross role that it can't get back, WAR lost things that neither of the other tanks will ever have again, and DRK has to go into cross role to get original cross class abilities back PLUS additional abilities that were taken from it and put in cross-role for very little gain on the part of the other two tanks. Things were moved into cross role that were not already in cross-class meaning certain jobs have to choose between things they had innately at 60 in 3.x, and things that they had in cross-class at 60 in 3.x. PLD doesn't have to make this choice.

[HeroIgnis]

Not to be nitpicky but you forgot about the wrath stacks that you used to get from Berserk, Vengeance, and Raw Intuition. In 4.0 there is no substitute for those nerfs, so If your gonna go by counting the numbers of nerf that each tank got that would technically still put warrior at the bottom. Regardless of wether or not warrior has less nerfs or not, this 4.0 Warrior just isn't as fun as the 3.0. This Warrior is a step down from what it used to be:

it feels clunky (Infuriate can't be used outside of a pull)
some of the skills don't make since (Shake it off, OnSlaught's cost to potency, Inner Release shared cool down with Unchained)
the removal of the beautiful ideal of using defensive cool down (Vengeance & Raw Intuition) as offensive stacks
Flash no longer being shared skill (It made handling mobs less frustrating & save TP)
Punishing the player for building gauge and stance swapping (50% of your gauge is ridiculous)

[silentwindfr]

i found amusing the fact that no one point out that the weapon from drk and war are slower... yes the overall dps of the weapon is the same. but the damage is not the same because of this. slower weapon, means harder hit per attack.

if that was the case how is possible for war/pld/drk to be so close in overall dps, when the potency of the paladin are superior like some people say.

don't get me wrong i'm with you on the fact that warrior dps is a bit too low since it must be the best ot, but if they hadn't done this... drk will have no place in the meta. you will have the pld as mt, warrior as ot and no place for the drk. now as ot the warrior have a burst far superior than the two other tank. that something that must'nt be ignored.

ps: another point, since our attack don't really up high the boost of the war that is mostly come from % is not as potent than before.

[Chrono_Rising]

Not to be nitpicky but you forgot about the wrath stacks that you used to get from Berserk, Vengeance, and Raw Intuition. In 4.0 there is no substitute for those nerfs, so If your gonna go by counting the numbers of nerf that each tank got that would technically still put warrior at the bottom. Regardless of wether or not warrior has less nerfs or not, this 4.0 Warrior just isn't as fun as the 3.0. This Warrior is a step down from what it used to be:

...
the removal of the beautiful ideal of using defensive cool down (Vengeance & Raw Intuition) as offensive stacks

Well I think storm's path is meant to fill this gap. Is it as awesome as having them fill your IB gauge as oGCD? No, I agree doesn't feel the same and for solo tanking not having flash is not fun.

As I level warrior I definately don't feel the same excitement I did when I leveled in 3.x. Though I will say when the stars align I am able to fit a 4rth fell cleave into beserk in level 60 content, which is nice.

But in terms of 8 man raiding you no longer need to burn mitigation to push personal dps, and it makes it much easier to swap with your cotank to mitigate more while staying in deliverance (since you have the mitigation for it), thereby reducing the incoming damage, and giving your healers more room to dps, all while not having to sacrifice your personal dps. You can literally double the amount of mitigation your raid has without needing to seriously coordinate anything in your rotation because of this change. Whereas in 3.x this took some level or coordination as far as when in their rotation warrior's could swap since some of their mitigation was burned for dps. I think taking the stacks off warrior's mitigation tools is one of the best changes they made when it comes to 8 man content.