The Ifrit Fight is Dangerous to the Community.

[SilvertearRen]

MMO's didn't used to that's for sure because it doesn't make sense.

It makes sense in a single player game because the player is controlling his own version of the game and that is all they come into contact with.

In an MMO you are playing on a virtual world with other players, if you give an easier route to the same goals then it is irrational for anyone to seek out a challenge even if one is added.

Put in a hard mode and an easy mode for every dungeon and unless the hard mode is not actually hard at all watch as everyone goes and does the easy mode first, gears up and then does the hard mode (unless like with Ifrit you make the easy mode not have any drops whatsoever, which I'd be totally fine with).

I just don't want to have to do tiered versions of the same fight as part of some warped single encounter gear progression like in WoW because that is a horrible and lazy game design.

You're assuming the easy version of the feature proposal will give anybody any real decent gear to use in the Hard mode...I want to guard against the idea of using Easy mode to "gear up" for the Hard Mode. Maybe as a training tool, sure, but not to get equipment that would give you an advantage in the hard mode.

[DoctorMog]

Want to know how you will get your shot at Ifrit?

Wait a month.

They will nerf him, or give us new gear/content that will make him easier and you can get your kill then.

[Murugan]

Well, about Option 1, I was thinking that most gear drops would be un-named, non-unique. Only unique, superior drops and chest loot would be found in the top tier version. This ensures that the system is balanced. And I would go for a two or three-rank system instead of five, because with three ranks, you have a smaller workload as a game developer in designing the loot tables for the three difficulty versions (NG equipment, NG+1 Equipment, and Unique Equipment).

And no, Maat is still in, and holy f*ck does he still kick ass.

About Besieged/Conquest, I had to contribute a f*ckton to ensure I could get a decent payoff. Sitting around got me crappy rewards. I don't play XI anymore though. Quit before the cap got raised for the first time after 65.

Yeah I'd be fine with what you just described, but I do kind of think it would be a waste of time to develop as only the Hard Mode would be worth doing. Why would 8 people get together to get some NQ gear they could buy for cheap on the Market Wards? Other than for RP reasons/boredom.

I think instead we just need a variety of content including some which is "hardcore challenging" (preferably in the form of alliance content) so those of us who want to challenge ourselves can do that. I don't want to have to resort to making my own "house rules" to challenge myself either, I want need for an MMO I pay for to demand it of me.

You're assuming the easy version of the feature proposal will give anybody any real decent gear to use in the Hard mode...I want to guard against the idea of using Easy mode to "gear up" for the Hard Mode. Maybe as a training tool, sure, but not to get equipment that would give you an advantage in the hard mode.

You keep using examples of other MMO's that do it though. You realize this is what those other MMO's, mainly WoW (and likely GW2 which you referenced will no doubt copy them), do.

[SilvertearRen]

I don't mean to sound like "GIMME ATTENTION" but I really would like a response to this from the OP.

What is wrong with having Casual and Hardcore content?

"Hardcore players can do both but Casual players can only do some!"

Exactly, because hardcore players are hardcore.

I'll oblige a response for you. The answer pertains to Hardcore content only, however.

Because, to me in my personal experience, most hardcore content does not really put you in control of your gaming experience. I have a strong preference to be in control of how hard I want my encounters to be. It's not much different from me playing Skyrim on Hard, getting eaten by a Dragon despite my best efforts and going, "Oh f*ck that noise!" and readjusting the difficulty to "Normal", and then fighting the dragon again to learn its cues and weak points. Armed with that knowledge, I can then re-up the difficulty to "Hard" and try the fight again.

Sure, it will rob me of the accomplishment of going "WOOT! I didn't chicken out and beat the Dragon on Hard the first time around!", but have I really cared for those sorts of thrilling highs? Not really. Again, it is a matter of individual preference.

[SilvertearRen]

Yeah I'd be fine with what you just described, but I do kind of think it would be a waste of time to develop as only the Hard Mode would be worth doing. Why would 8 people get together to get some NQ gear they could buy for cheap on the Market Wards? Other than for RP reasons/boredom.

I think instead we just need a variety of content including some which is "hardcore challenging" (preferably in the form of alliance content) so those of us who want to challenge ourselves can do that. I don't want to have to resort to making my own "house rules" to challenge myself either, I want need for an MMO I pay for to demand it of me.

I don't see having a "Normal Mode" as worthless. It could be an ideal resource for those who want to do the fight without having to depend on outside information sources (wikis, websites, videos, etc) and instead learning from their own visceral, personal experiences.

Getting your "experience" by living viscerally through others (via aforementioned sources) isn't my sort of thing. Though it IS necessary for now...

If you haven't noticed already, I am a "Knowledge is Power" type of person. I feel rewarded when I learn something by my own initiative, rather than being given the knowledge by other people. However, in a game environment as with a pacing like FFXIV, it is significantly more difficult for me to absorb that kind of information from personal experience when I am under pressure, as I've said in previous posts.

Want to know how you will get your shot at Ifrit?

Wait a month.

They will nerf him, or give us new gear/content that will make him easier and you can get your kill then.

As far as I'm concerned this thread as of now no longer deals with the act of beating Ifrit or completing endgame content - I'll end up beating him eventually -but is more or less specific to how future and current endgame content should be implemented. That is to say, we're talking about how we can "open up" the endgame content more without damaging the experience for hardcore players.

[Murugan]

I don't see having a "Normal Mode" as worthless. It could be an ideal resource for those who want to do the fight without having to depend on outside information sources (wikis, websites, videos, etc) and instead learning from their own visceral, personal experiences.

Getting your "experience" by living viscerally through others (via aforementioned sources) isn't my sort of thing. Though it IS necessary for now...

That makes no sense if the only way to beat Ifrit was to depend on outside information sources, how did anyone ever beat it in the first place? Square Enix did not hide a strategy somewhere on the internet for us to find as part of some easter egg hunt.

You can get your experience now, because the fight isn't totally gear dependent you can go in and take your time to figure it out (and there is no real timer either).

Besides I don't think there are enough people playing MMO's who want "generic rewards" or a casual oriented "visceral experience" to demand they put a fight in. Which is why if they went to scaling it would likely involve gear scaling as well, and that is what ruins the fight.

I think you should have just had fun with the fight (or maybe taken a long break from it then tried it again), rather than make this thread. It is certainly doable by everyone, it just has a low tolerance for mistakes which makes it a very frustrating fight as you get used to it (and before the "real elitists" come down on you for failing, just remember they all whined and screamed at eachother too before they get their kill. We have hilarious video evidence in many cases!

The difference is they did their 70 attempts all in 1-2 days, while as a casual you should be spreading that out over a couple months (or more). They aren't better than you, it isn't because they had 4 Lancers (total overkill), or because they had Materia, or anything other than that they went through all those attempts and you can too. No one is stopping you from getting your personal, visceral experience in Ifrit right now as it is.

You can do it! Just believe in yourself, and try not to murder your group mates.

[Physic]

I don't see having a "Normal Mode" as worthless. It could be an ideal resource for those who want to do the fight without having to depend on outside information sources (wikis, websites, videos, etc) and instead learning from their own visceral, personal experiences.

Getting your "experience" by living viscerally through others (via aforementioned sources) isn't my sort of thing. Though it IS necessary for now...

If you haven't noticed already, I am a "Knowledge is Power" type of person. I feel rewarded when I learn something by my own initiative, rather than being given the knowledge by other people. However, in a game environment as with a pacing like FFXIV, it is significantly more difficult for me to absorb that kind of information from personal experience when I am under pressure, as I've said in previous posts.



As far as I'm concerned this thread as of now no longer deals with the act of beating Ifrit or completing endgame content - I'll end up beating him eventually -but is more or less specific to how future and current endgame content should be implemented. That is to say, we're talking about how we can "open up" the endgame content more without damaging the experience for hardcore players.

yeah, your supposed to get that visceral feeling fighting on hard though. Thats where all the rest of these dudes learned it, they went in there and tried, and died, and tested. You dont need an easy mode for that, in fact the same solutions, and tactics wouldnt be necessary on an easier mode. you could take the hit and cure, in hard mode that isnt always the case.

[Aion]

A:Ok guys, I think Ifrit 5 star is hard, lets do the 4 star first
other: OK!!!

*3 hours later

Ak ,we get hang of it, lets do the real thing then!
Other: Ok!!!

*30 min later
A: WTF why it is so hard!! Lets do again!!
Other: erm boss, why would we do the 4* for hours if we still cant beat the 5*?????

[Quanta]

I'm sorry do you want to play World of Warcraft? I hear they are still accepting new players. It is a bad system, it doesn't matter if people still play the game not everything from WoW is a shining example of good design. People complain about Hard modes constantly in WoW. It was a cheap excuse for Blizzard to put a timesink in endgame and it ruined a great deal of the fun those encounters could have been because everyone had to do it on a crappy version first.

But hey if you want to turn this game into an extreme gear grind with no soul or enjoyment go ahead... oh wait no please don't! I don't want that and I (will be) a paying customer too. I like challenge in my games, and I like the feeling of accomplishment of beating a tough fight with my friends. Not beating a fight on varying levels of difficulty while I gear up and practice for a slightly tougher version of that same fight....

As opposed to what, exactly? The current FFXIV is already a gear grind with no soul or enjoyment; a barren wasteland devoid of any meaningful content. You have two instanced dungeons that have no real purpose in the world (there's supposedly imperial plots that take you inside them, only one has no imperials at all, while the other has imperials that aren't even related to the end goal of the instance, and they both end with you fighting bosses that literally come out of nowhere and you kill them because they're bad guys, I guess), a bunch of world bosses you have no reason to go hunt and kill other than the fact that they exist and they drop shinies, some strongholds where your raid just stands around farming keys off of bosses and mini-bosses as they respawn in order to open chests with crappy drop rates, and a single-room boss fight whose major difficulties are related to problems with game animations and network lag more than the actual fight mechanics. And really, what motivations do you currently have to continue playing the game aside from acquiring gear and maintaining a social circle? It can't be the levelling process, where your options are to mindlessly kill the local wildlife for no purpose other than the earning of imaginary points, or the completion of your daily allotment of kill and fetch quests to the same end; there's no way in hell that's more entertaining than doing quest chains that will grant you experience, items, and money as you advance in the game's story, which leads you to instanced dungeons to raid with friends and strangers alike and preps you for the endgame where you'll finally get to make progress towards defeating the game's Big Bad.

Yoshi-P needs to hurry up and get this abortion over with so we can get acquainted with the new kid.

[Lavani]

MMO's didn't used to that's for sure because it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense to you and i'm sure several others but that doesn't mean that the concept makes no sense. Just because it was never done before does not mean it shouldn't.

It makes sense in a single player game because the player is controlling his own version of the game and that is all they come into contact with.

In an MMO you are playing on a virtual world with other players, if you give an easier route to the same goals then it is irrational for anyone to seek out a challenge even if one is added.

Although a single player is interacting with hundreds of people in an MMO they can and are still controlling their own version of the game. That's how you get people at different levels of the game. End game is designed to be played with multiple players. That being said people begin to form groups (Linkshells, guilds etc). When these people progress through content they do it as ONE. So to say that various levels of difficulty makes no sense in an MMO, makes no sense....

Put in a hard mode and an easy mode for every dungeon and unless the hard mode is not actually hard at all watch as everyone goes and does the easy mode first, gears up and then does the hard mode (unless like with Ifrit you make the easy mode not have any drops whatsoever, which I'd be totally fine with).

If the hard mode is not actually hard why waste time doing the "easy" mode. Players will just skip to the hardmode and get the better gear right from the start. That is where the developers have to design the encounter to be more challenging. That can be done with addition of abilities and changing the learned pattern of the original encounter.

I just don't want to have to do tiered versions of the same fight as part of some warped single encounter gear progression like in WoW because that is a horrible and lazy game design.

You have the choice to join a LS that does not care about HM content. To continue your wow example, Blizzard gave players the choice to do content in either 10 or 25 player mode, at normal or hard difficulty for each and there are different people focusing on each of the modes offered.