Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

[Kogekigami]

I like to believe what Yoshi P meant is the the majority of main content (basically non savage/extreme) Can be cleared without healers dpsing by design therefore for more new and nervous healers don't need to feel pressured to dps. As someone who use to main healer and even now will jump on the healer role and my partner is a main white (possibly one of the top percentage white mages on my server *bias but he is pretty good* XD) I can understand frustration when you see a healer just stood there not doing anything.

I think the loss to cleric stance is a good way to encourage people who panic easily to try dpsing without the fear of derping cleric stance (come one we have all done it and who ever says they have never double tapped cleric is lying XP) and causing a wipe. Is it removing alot of the challenge...yes. Is it the end of the world, no. We should be trying to help players excel at there role not belittle them.


And if you really can't stand someone who wants to just heal...go premade party?

[Aramina]

And if you really can't stand someone who wants to just heal...go premade party?

While this is the perfect solution, it is also the worst solution in that it can be flipped to "if you can't stand someone asking you to not be idle... go premade party."

Maybe we should all boycott DF and only do premades. :P

[Kaurie]

Healers are expected to dps in high end content.

Off tanks are expected to dps in high end content.

I am waiting for DPS to be expected to either (i) off-heal, or (ii) off tank in high end content in specific phases of boss fights so that this expectation is equalised for all jobs. Just sayin'

This will happen if a mechanic is added like so..
Boss is made invulnerable to all damage until players have received X amount of healing. In this situation, everyone will spam as much heals as possible to get the phase over. Just like when no damage is going out and healers don't have to heal, they'll DPS to help push that along.

In other words, DPS won't be expected to not DPS, unless there is no DPS to do. Just like healers are not expected to not heal, unless there is no healing to do.

[Deheuty]

I can understand frustration when you see a healer just stood there not doing anything.

I am not criticising what you are saying here but just wanted to point out that for WHM, sometimes standing there not doing anything is part of the plan to mana regen. WHMs have to be more careful with mana management than SCH/AST and when fights start to go worse than usual, more MP is expanded healing these... BRD/MCH aren't always available to help us all the time and our MP regens also have cooldowns etc.

[MomomiMomi]

I feel that the way I play is average on hard content and good on easy content. I'm not advocating for a "never dps" argument, because it's situational, and unless it feels like the DPS is exceptionally weak, or tank is exceptionally strong, most of that obstacle is CS alone. I've said many things to point out that the game does not require healers to DPS, has never required healers to DPS, Yoshi-P has designed the content so healers never have to DPS, and yet raiders are still insistent that the "meta" says others wise, and the meta is gospel, despite the raiders are only 2% of the players.

It's not good. It's bad, almost terrible. All you did is heal and you didn't even do that well. It's also amazing that you picked this particular instance to show off that healer was never meant to heal, because the doll mechanic is designed to expect healers to dps. Both dps get dolled, the tank and healer are expected to break them out.

[Hamada]

My argument has always been that people advocating "dps or get kicked" should stay out of the duty finder, because overwhelmingly the PUG's are not raiders. When I get raiders in the DF, they are typically worse than the worst speed-runners because they ignore the mechanics in trying to dps through them. I feel that the way I play is average on hard content and good on easy content. I'm not advocating for a "never dps" argument, because it's situational, and unless it feels like the DPS is exceptionally weak, or tankis exceptionally strong, most of that obstacle is CS alone. I've said many things to point out that the game does not require healers to DPS, has never required healers to DPS, Yoshi-P has designed the content so healers never have to DPS, and yet raiders are still insistent that the "meta" says others wise, and the meta is gospel, despite the raiders are only 2% of the players. So the raiders are presenting one extremist attitude based on activity that doesn't get questioned. They perhaps don't realize how toxic this makes them look, why would anyone want to ever play the raid content when the people who play it are being hostile to all players. I'm sure this is a self-inflected wound on the raid content.

I posted the video knowing full well certain people in the thread would think I'm bad at the game, yet the duty was completed, which is the goal. We weren't failing to learn from mechanics, and what you don't see is how much everyone but myself was joking around in the chat, mostly the BRD. I rarely chat in the party unless I'm explaining mechanics, or waiting for a replacement party member. That is not me being anti-social, that is me focusing on the combat, and nearly every combat (eg the first 5 minutes) of any dungeon typically involve figuring out how well the Tank and DPS work together, and I've been able to adapt to "speed running" tanks that use their CD's more than I'm able to adapt to raiders who ignore mechanics.

Like I can generalize the categories of parties like this:
1. Parties that are generally cool with just completion, no pressure, and everyone makes mistakes and just brushes them off
2. Parties that are speed-running, though not necessarily farming. A bad group will usually point fingers once someone dies, usually at the Tank or Healer. Mostly the Healer. They will also abandon the instance at any wipe.
3. Parties that are "raid"'ing the regular content and are basically expecting PUG's to act like Raids. These people should be using the PF, not the DF, because honestly if you are expecting a raider healer from the DF, even in Primal, you're not going to get one unless it's 5pm on a Saturday. Raider's will just kick players after the first boss because it didn't die fast enough.
4. Parties that are full of newbies (strangely enough it's always a group of newbies), like #1, but takes 2-3 times longer.
5. Parties that are full of jerks. I'm sure we've all had one, but the only one of note was Pharos Sirius, where the Tank and DPS both ultimatium'd me to kick one of them, because they hated each other, and I forget who I kicked.

I also want to note that I've never touched the PvP content in FFXIV by choice. I've hated open-world PvP in other games, I've played at least two MMORPG's that had such things, and they just people revenge-seeking, and if you thought raiders were mean, think about how many people can't lose gracefully in games. I've never seen a PvP mechanic that wasn't horrible, so that is why I've said nothing about PvP, and I've not seen anyone else mention PvP in regards to healer dps meta or heal-only healers.

I do not know if you are really trying to misunderstand the situation to provoke arguments so you can play the victim cards or you truly do not understand. People do not walk in a DF, well least most don't thinking ' i am going to kick this healer if they do not dps' If the healer is trying people do not say anything. If they remark about player tips and this goes ignored though action and speech, typically nothing happens.

However, when you see a healer reply to such things like "I am a healer I do not DPS" or even going further by attacking harassment on top of that, like throwing insults at people for simply asking them to dps, that is when they get the kick. Because this shows they have the ability to DPS and heal, but refuse. It would be same thing with DPS "can you AoE the monsters?" "It costs too much tp do you play mnk" etc those people get kicked too. Like when you do something like this:

expect a kick @5 min mark

You are also assuming way too much like with "When I get raiders in the DF, they are typically worse than the worst speed-runners because they ignore the mechanics in trying to dps through them. I feel that the way I play is average on hard content and good on easy content. " when you do not play the game much, how can you attack people and make statements like this and wonder why people are on your back so much?

"I'm not advocating for a "never dps" argument, because it's situational, and unless it feels like the DPS is exceptionally weak, or tank is exceptionally strong, most of that obstacle is CS alone." no you are not, people got on your back for you saying huge healer downtime is a myth, despite showing your own video you had huge downtime.

Again stop trying to blame "raiders" and insulting "raiders" People say you should cleric stance and DPS because of the huge downtime healers have. it has nothing to do with being elitist. You really should stop insulting people with more experience with you when you have nothing to back it up.

It was pointed out to you numinous times how much a DPS healer can out dps DPS roles when they do not know how to play. A good DPS healer would been able to do more damage then all your teammates combined, solo. You still say that is not a lot and not a big deal?

[Mature]

And you seem to misunderstand.

I am not discussing healer dps itself.
I am discussing players refusing to put in as much effort as the rest of the group

But that's no what this thread about. you are dragging this thread for pages and pages discussing something that we are not talking about by discussing a totally different matter.

If you tank - keep aggro (more than welcome to dps no one is forcing you or mandatory)

If you Dps - better do damage

If you heal - you better heal (more than welcome to dps no one is forcing you or mandatory)

Such simple fact that people don't seem to get. Just satisfied yourself that you are doing your job. If you want to something else out of your job description please do but focus on your priorities regardless or what others "should be expecting you" to do.

[Stormbad]

My argument has always been that people advocating "dps or get kicked" should stay out of the duty finder, because overwhelmingly the PUG's are not raiders.

Reading your response, I actually understand 100% where you're coming from. And yes, I understand that given your skills and abilities, you are doing your best. Also, even though I like to play optimally myself, I do enjoy chat banter and that explains a lot of the idle moments, if you were chatting.

If you want people to listen to your position more seriously, you should understand there are raiders and those who like to play optimally. A raider does not automatically mean they are "push to the limit" players, I know many raiders who were carried in their group and quite frankly, they aren't that good of players. In contrast, I know many non-raiders who are very "push to the limit" players and are amazing players. You shouldn't just generalize by saying raiders ruin the game. Let's make it clear that if a player is ignoring mechanics because they want "l33t deeps" and dying because of it, they are a bad player. Given that, I have intentionally taken avoidable damage for increased uptime, but I'll never put myself in any risk of dying. Also I do this playing any job role, not just DPS. Like you were saying earlier, it's all situational.

I know this is anecdotal but in all my personal experience playing since beta and being on a server where there were many top-end raid FCs and playing with many of them, they don't show negative attitude when running df content. If anything, the group is relieved and feel the run goes easier because of the knowledge, experience and skills the raider brings to the party. Now that's not to say there aren't any bad apples, there certainly are, but bad apples are all over the place and not exclusive to "raider elitists." In conclusion, I would stop the hate on raiders as a group and say what they actually are, bad players and you might get more people to see your position without them being defensive.

[Tharia]

But that's no what this thread about. you are dragging this thread for pages and pages discussing something that we are not talking about by discussing a totally different matter.

If you tank - keep aggro (more than welcome to dps no one is forcing you or mandatory)

If you Dps - better do damage

If you heal - you better heal (more than welcome to dps no one is forcing you or mandatory)

Such simple fact that people don't seem to get. Just satisfied yourself that you are doing your job. If you want to something else out of your job description please do but focus on your priorities regardless or what others "should be expecting you" to do.

Well if all would just accept that we propably would have saved 104 pages of precious internet space. Also not to mention if you are a fix goup it is totally your thing how to play anyway.

[Aramina]

But that's no what this thread about. you are dragging this thread for pages and pages discussing something that we are not talking about by discussing a totally different matter.

If you tank - keep aggro (more than welcome to dps no one is forcing you or mandatory)

If you Dps - better do damage

If you heal - you better heal (more than welcome to dps no one is forcing you or mandatory)

Such simple fact that people don't seem to get. Just satisfied yourself that you are doing your job. If you want to something else out of your job description please do but focus on your priorities regardless or what others "should be expecting you" to do.

If you are a tank in a party: you should be hitting something every gcd.
If you are a dps in a party: you should be hitting something every gcd.
If you are a healer in a party: you should be hitting something every gcd.