PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

[Belhi]

To call it infinite, like it truely was in ARR, is what I'm going after. You can get dangerously, bottom of the barrel low this time around. Becoming OOM can still happen on a SCH.

It can. Just in my experience it isn't very common. It's not like a holy spam which drains you of MP like a bucket with a hole in it.

[LalaRu]

My vision of "bad" healers:

1. they don't heal when you need it;
2. they don't dispel important debuffs (silence and pacifications are everywhere, who tells esuna is useless is... just... wrong);
3. they react to things two years later;

When healer doesn't fall on the above, to me it is OK.

Bonus points:

• DPS when heal not needed
• good mana management (don't burns all mana on dps and then crying he have not, when it comes to huge heals to do thereafter)

Healer OK + bonus points = probable commendation

[Faliandra]

So you're a pot-spammer. If that's the way you want to play, that's your choice. Don't expect other players to have a bottomless purse or the time to craft them.

wha...?

I use Hi-Elixirs all the time, NQ ones. People sell those on the MB all the time for like 1-100g a piece...because they drop everywhere,all the time.

Bottomless purse? Faaaaaar from it.
Time to craft? Nope.

With the cooldown attached to using potions,its also HARDLY spammable.

You try way too hard to prove irrelevant things.

[KisaiTenshi]

wha...?

I use Hi-Elixirs all the time, NQ ones. People sell those on the MB all the time for like 1-100g a piece...because they drop everywhere,all the time.

Bottomless purse? Faaaaaar from it.
Time to craft? Nope.

With the cooldown attached to using potions,its also HARDLY spammable.

You try way too hard to prove irrelevant things.

Pot Spamming is a technique used to compensate for inadequate gear in other games, nothing more. In this game it has a cooldown attached to it that makes spamming items counter productive in combat. The only time I even needed pots in this game was right at launch. After that, the buffs in the game associated with pots just don't last long enough to be worth giving them inventory space. Other consumables like food at least last 30 minutes.

The trend I'm seeing is that people are trying to hard to prove that Healers play bad by not DPS'ing, when the evidence appears to be the opposite, Healers of "so much downtime" seems to be because the healer is playing bad on purpose and the tank suffers for it from all the overhealing and enmity generation coming from the healer's inability to pick the right healing spell and instead spamming Medica II or the highest single-target heal as the only heal. You aren't speeding up the run any by DPS'ing as a healer, so why risk wiping the party? It's counter-productive.

The only time I'm hitting a near-OOM point in any duty is when I have to carry a bad or poorly equipped tank, or constantly having to revive DPS taking dirt naps who aren't trying to avoid AOE's. The one I have on video is where a tank broke all their gear by the time it got to Midgardsormr in Keeper of the Lake and had to finish on DPS gear. Or maybe that time where I had to use the Summoner's pet as the tank for one boss because the tank dc'd. All of this is adapting to the situation even if it takes longer instead of "abandoning" or "kicking" because the situation isn't within the parameters you want.

This is the thing that people on the forum refuse to acknowledge, that no players are perfect. If Cleric Stance changes to be useless, and it becomes easier to fire off Aero/Stone that still does not make it something they can just throw in a rotation of healing. Disposing of Cleric Stance at best just removes one of the hurdles needed to play single player quests that otherwise the cooldown between switching stances usually ends up with you taking two hits from a mob, and all the accidental "oops still in CS" that no longer gives the "dps healer" an excuse to exclusively DPS and let the other healer carry the party. I don't expect anything to change really, healers will not be punished by not DPS'ing, and will actually be able to use spells like Assize, Aero III and Holy for where the AOE effect is useful, who cares about the DPS value.

I've never seen a legitmate example of where a healer has been "required" to DPS to get through content. At best, the healer's DPS only makes up for a shortcoming by the DPS in the Savage versions of Raids. They (the developers) have made it clear that all of these things can be cleared using the roles required for the raid or duty, and thus making unreasonable demands of healers or tanks to contribute DPS when it's not even required, is again, is asking to be carried. Big deal if a WHM DPS shaves 10 seconds or 2 minutes off a duty, there is no reward for doing so, and you're not going getting any farther ahead in anything by doing so.

So when you use PUG's, and they aren't playing the way you want, find a static that does. Clearly from the uncivil comments by some people in this thread alone, there are enough arrogant "deeps or get kicked" people that they can all form their own statics and not have to worry about people wanting to have fun.

[Anzaman]

You aren't speeding up the run any by DPS'ing as a healer, so why risk wiping the party? It's counter-productive.

They tend to make Ex dungeons so easy that it's almost impossible to wipe in them, I was healing and DPS'ing in Baelsar's Wall at i230 (min. ilevel) without issues.

Big deal if a WHM DPS shaves 10 seconds or 2 minutes off a duty, there is no reward for doing so, and you're not going getting any farther ahead in anything by doing so.

Even if you shave 2 minutes off from each run, it's going to be 730 minutes "shaved" from daily Ex runs each year. That means you have over 12 hours free time to be spent doing something else.

And I'd say that two minutes out of timer is quite low DPS for healer - they can do quite high amount of damage.

[DaikiKiyoshi]

You aren't speeding up the run any by DPS'ing as a healer, so why risk wiping the party? It's counter-productive.

Lol nope. You completely lost me (and whatever credibility you may have had left on the subject) at this part. Now you are just spouting lies. Please find somewhere else to spread your misinformation.

[Alleo]

It would be interesting at the very least. Would be amusing to see people flailing their arms when they can't play the way they used to, at least. It's one of the things I'm severely hoping will happen with the expansion. If nothing else, the fallout could be interesting.

I have no statistics but I am quite sure that all the good healers that do DPS too would have no problem with such a change. They might not DPS as much as before depending on the nerf and/or group but I am quite sure that they will find their downtime to kick some monster behind. While at the same time I can see some (not all!) pure healers completely freaking out about that. Because in my experience (and I know its mine alone and not a fact) I had more pure healers that wiped us than DPS healers that did that. So I am not sure if more healing or even a nerf to some healing skills would be that good for pure healers.

This is the thing that people on the forum refuse to acknowledge, that no players are perfect. If Cleric Stance changes to be useless, and it becomes easier to fire off Aero/Stone that still does not make it something they can just throw in a rotation of healing. Disposing of Cleric Stance at best just removes one of the hurdles needed to play single player quests that otherwise the cooldown between switching stances usually ends up with you taking two hits from a mob, and all the accidental "oops still in CS" that no longer gives the "dps healer" an excuse to exclusively DPS and let the other healer carry the party. I don't expect anything to change really, healers will not be punished by not DPS'ing, and will actually be able to use spells like Assize, Aero III and Holy for where the AOE effect is useful, who cares about the DPS value.

I am quite sure that there are enough bad tanks and DDs out there too and those should be also called out and its often DDs that are kicked if a problem arise. So its not like us DDs dont face problems if we dont perform good.

And I am sorry but if someone is not really able to throw three dots as a scholar in SB if there is no cleric stance anymore and enough downtime to do so, I kinda question the skill level of that person. ^^; I am a main DD yet I also healed with randoms and yet I was still able to throw in some DPS skills. I would not say that I am that great of an healer and yet I still managed to do so and otherwise with at least a decent group of people the dungeon would be way to boring.

I will not throw someone out of the dungeon if it runs smoothly enough. I will also not kick anyone if they cause a wipe or two. But I will definitely say something if we die all the time (even at trash) or if DD/tank ignore things. Most of the time I will also not say something if a healer does not DPS and if that person is new too then I will also not judge them for it. But if someone is well equipped and overheals all the time or even stand around doing nothing I will judge them silently. And if that person is rude then I will say something too.

I can tell bad stories about any role in this game so its not like I only judge healers, but I also dont see why I should be less "strict" with them? We DD also often have to do mechanics on top of dishing out damage. Tanks do have to swap in some fights and on top of keeping things aggroed also have to position the monsters right. I just cant really see how healers have it worse than that.

[akaneakki]

...

I think you need to stop saying nobody is blaming healers or DPS. DPS gets blamed most of the time, since the game is based on damage culcuation and time to beat the said content. Yes I'm aware you can take very long time in roulettes and still beat it in time, but honestly that's stupid excuse, consider that it's the very same dungeons for months, and I highly doubt they will be much as fun for most people, spamming same shit everyday. When it comes to farming, you FARM! Meaning you want to get in and out fast.

[Fyce]

-Snip-

The bottom line of the point is that as a player, you should constantly be pressing buttons. No matter what role you play.
When it comes to healers, just like what they teach you in the Hall of the Novice, once you've pressed enough healing buttons, then press the ones that do damage, until you have to press the healing ones again.

That's all. That's all there is to it.
Be always active.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The trend I'm seeing is that people are trying to hard to prove that Healers play bad by not DPS'ing, when the evidence appears to be the opposite, Healers of "so much downtime" seems to be because the healer is playing bad on purpose and the tank suffers for it from all the overhealing and enmity generation coming from the healer's inability to pick the right healing spell and instead spamming Medica II or the highest single-target heal as the only heal. You aren't speeding up the run any by DPS'ing as a healer, so why risk wiping the party? It's counter-productive.

Just stop.

You are speaking about mechanics and calculations you clearly don't understand. The only way healers rip aggro from tanks is by spamming their high burst heals, which no good healer does because it isn't mana efficient. Likewise, healers who only heal are far more prone to overhealing than their DPS centric counterpart. The latter knows when to dedicate a cast to their target or allow HoTs to tick them up. Leaving the tank's HP to plummet is good healing. Essential Dignity can go from a 400 potency heal to 1,000. On a Warrior Holmganging a buster or simply dipping below the 15k mark, ED becomes a 10k+ heal on a 45s cooldown. That is phenomenal.