Why, Alisaie?

[alimdia]

I disagree anything has to be changed about her, she is fulfilling a role of breathing in new air into the dialogue, not everything has to be so extremely polite and serious.

One of the best lines of Y'shtola was when she disregarded politeness to pretty much tell Merlwyb they and their territorial war are to blame for Titan and Levi summoning, but this is not something she will always do, having a character fulfilling this role works better for the story.

Perhaps the problem just lies with Alisaie's motivations. The main, overarching plot is one of people fighting and dying to save the world, and this drives their every action. Meanwhile, all Alisaie seems to care about is Louisoix, or forging her own path based on Louisoix's ideals, not her own - and it says a lot about the twins when Alphinaud clearly cares more about her than chasing Louisoix's memory, which, yeah, is one reason why I prefer him - and this just doesn't tie her into the main plot very well.

I think you should give this a read http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest.../#sidestory_07 her story moved away from her grandfather a long time ago.

BTW it's perfectly okay to dislike a character, but that doesn't mean something has to be changed about that character.

[RobinMalvin]

At this point I just want to say, the writers can dress her up, give her all the minions, and make her as OP in fights as they want, but Alisaie's not going to be an important or compelling character until she starts actively affecting the plot the way every other Scion seems easily capable of doing.

Isn't this what people used to complain about Minfillia? That she was nothing but a fanservice girl in charge, with no *real* contribution to the plot?

I won't touch Minfillia however since it would be out of topic so moving back to Alisae.

From the very beginning of early story, we were shown that Alisae was a very emotional driven character. She was a straightforward, no nonsense girl with no patience for politics or negotiation. In her eyes, action IS immediate action, not talking around promises, not paying hollow lips services, and not paperwork jobs. This trait contrasts heavily with Alphinaud's back then, thus resulting in the twins' parted ways.

Her character later got a development with the Coil storyline. Her impulsive and emotional approach was questioned, forcing her to re-evaluate her ways of thinking. It was also here that her motive was brought to light, that her reason for coming to Eorzea was simply her attempt to reconnect with her grandsire, nothing altruistic at all. (P.S: Alphinaud's motivation was nothing but selfish at first, it took grand beating to change his mind)

By the end of the story, Alisae came to made peace with her inner conflicts, even managed to reconcile her strained relationship with her twin brother. She came to realize the errors of her way and considered the merit of Alphinaud's logical approach, and so she decided to make her own journey, to find her reason and her way to protect Eorzea.

When she came back and joined the Scions, we've been shown how far she's became. Despite her initial disdain for politics, she attended the Alliance meetings, even when her presence would give little to no meaning especially with Alphinaud around. She listened to what others said, held her usually sharp tongue, and talked only when needed. She could even deliver sharp and otherwise direct statement in relatively civil and like-politician manner without sounding rude or offensive.

Outside the meeting, she still openly expresses dislike of politics, but her eagerness to participate in something important, however she hates it, is a huge jump of her initial characterization.

Alisae however, is aware of her limits and other Scions' capability. She opted to stay behind and let Alphinaud go instead when the Alliance was amassing their forces, because Alphinaud has more experience in handling military affairs. She also didn't follow the contingent to wake Omega, with other Scions were just as preoccupied, and Alphinaud is more reliable than her in scientific research, someone had to stay and be prepared if there were any news from the Alliance, or other fronts (keep in mind that every Scion agents, including the less noticeable ones, were out seemingly on equally important missions).

She is no more the impulsive and emotional girl she was. She's become mature, and has accepted other approach to solve things, and that being passive doesn't mean being inactive. In my opinion, she's gotten just as much development as her brother, if not more. A good character is not the one who affects the plot the most. Characterization and development are the keys to make a good character.

I admit that the pace of story this time feels rushed, resulting in many of a character's development and traits forgettable and ignored. But blaming the poor plot and its delivery on the characters does no justice to the characters themselves.

[Mysterysword]

I think you should give this a read http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest.../#sidestory_07 her story moved away from her grandfather a long time ago.

I gave that ridiculously trite story way more reads than it deserved - it reads like bad fanfiction, to me. One thing to note is that in the very first scene with Emery, Alisaie's still quoting Louisoix's "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." line. Hell, she's still quoting it in 3.55-3.56 (can't exactly remember if she did in 3.4 but I have a feeling she did). Sure, maybe she does have other motivations for doing whatever she's doing. If so, can we get a clearer explanation on that? Why does it seem like any time she needs a motivation for doing something, the writers default to having her quote Louisoix?

My previous post made it sound as if I was saying Alisaie's a bad character because she doesn't affect the plot, which is not what I meant to say. Rather, a well-written character would affect the story simply because they are a well-written character, not having the story tailored to them the way 3.4 was tailored to Alisaie. I cannot find a single instance where I implied that the poor writing of the plot was the fault of the characters. That is not the case in my opinion: I think that the poor writing is exactly what's causing the characters to be shafted so badly.

[RobinMalvin]

One thing to note is that in the very first scene with Emery, Alisaie's still quoting Louisoix's "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." line. Hell, she's still quoting it in 3.55-3.56 (can't exactly remember if she did in 3.4 but I have a feeling she did).

Sure, maybe she does have other motivations for doing whatever she's doing. If so, can we get a clearer explanation on that? Why does it seem like any time she needs a motivation for doing something, the writers default to having her quote Louisoix?

I can't be sure if she did quote that line during her re-introductory story, but yes, she did quote it in 3.56 and personally, nothing is wrong with that. More than half of the casts like to quote Louisoix, with Urianger obviously the best example.

There is nothing wrong with quoting someone that is considered a national hero by all of Eorzea, less so if they have personal interaction with said hero. Louisoix was the driving force of the Circle movement, and the man behind the Scions founding. He's the reason for the twins coming to Eorzea. Louisoix was, and still is the reason why the Scions do what they do, some may even say he was their motive initially. Even so, each has found their own reason and motive to fight, not because Louisoix told them to, but because they, in each of their way, has come to believe in what Louisoix believed in. That newfound reason doesn't make them arrogant to cast Louisoix aside; if not for Louisoix in the first place, they may not come to this realization. So they honor him, quoting him time and again, not simply because they follow his creed but because they believe in his creed.

The poor plot writing is to blame, yes, but it was clear the writers still put much effort to show off the characters in more subtle ways. The characters, barring exceptional few, are absolutely so much well written and thought of while the plot story and the delivery just simply can't keep up.

[Mysterysword]

So they honor him, quoting him time and again, not simply because they follow his creed but because they believe in his creed.

I am fully aware and cognizant of the fact that the Scions quote Louisoix plenty of times, and why. There is no need to bring them up when the whole reason why I mentioned Alisaie's quoting of Louisoix had nothing to do with them in the first place. But the Scions do serve as a contrast to Alisaie. The problem I have with Alisaie quoting Louisoix's words, as I said before, is because it seems like she's using Louisoix's teachings as her motivation for doing anything, whether it be helping out Emery in her Tale, or re-joining the Scions. Because I get absolutely no impression from her that anything she does is truly of her own volition, as opposed to being of opinions and ideals that she absorbed from someone she idolised. And that irritates me, because if you want to present a strong character, that's not exactly the way to write them.

The rest of the Scions, in contrast, give me no such impression. I can easily believe that they do what they do, not because "Louisoix said it was the right thing to do", but simply because they want to do it.

I find it hilarious how with Minfilia, we had a diplomatic female character who stayed out of the action because she lacked combat skills. Now, with Alisaie, we have a combat-trained female character who stays out of the action because... she lacks diplomatic skills. Can we ever win?

The reason why the poor handling of Alisaie bothers me so much is: From the new outfit, the minion, and the buildup of the 3.4 story between 3.0 to 3.3, I conclude that SE wants to present Alisaie as a main member of the supporting cast. All well and good, except why does her character development seem so out-of-focus compared to the rest of the Scions? She had an entire patch to shine and yet it just fell flat. Instead of allowing her, as a character, to shape and drive the plot, the plot just forged on ahead, with her tagging along because she's "not the girl I once was". I suppose poisoned arrow wounds come with a side of Instant Character Development(TM).

Compare to, say, Thancred. Throughout 3.1 to 3.3, he had a handful of scenes and interactions, both to the player and the WoL, but in those few scenes, managed to show off just how he'd changed as a character, and provide a solid, simple, and clear explanation for why he'd changed. But try as I may, I cannot find a clear explanation for why Alisaie has suddenly changed from the way she was back in 2.0 (and let's put aside the Coils storyline, because if her Tale is canon, then Coils seems to have affected nothing at all), to joining the Scions in 3.4.

[RobinMalvin]

snip

Alisae has just as much a reason to quote and idolize her grandfather just like any Scion. Does the fact she quote him many times mean he hold him in high regard? Certainly. Does that mean she simply use his grandfather's teaching as an excuse? Maybe, if we consider Coil storyline non canon and her cutscenes in 3.4 is set aside but as it stands out, the probability of her simply emulating Louisoix is close to zero.

I suggest you rewatch the cutscene of 3.4, Beneath A Star Filled Sky. Just because she quote Louisoix, doesn't mean that's all everything in her head.

3.4 gave her lots of focus, and she's a brand new addition to Scions so it's not anything strange for her to be not the main focus in next plot. Even then, her growing character is obviously still showed without having to put her in the midst of story. She's new character, doesn't mean she has to suddenly affect and control the entire plot.

You judge her character too quick just after one patch of her re-introduction.

P.S

This rant posts have gone too long to be in lore focused forum.

[Belhi]

/snip

To be honest, I don't see much difference in how Alisaie is developed to how the other characters are. I am not sure why this bothers you specifically with Alisaie. That said, a good deal of her current development happened in Coils and was about her coming to understand her grandfather's choices. A good deal of her attitude towards the city states prior to that was colored by the fact she was mourning her Grandfather and projecting that at the city states. For her it felt like they were wasting his sacrifice even if that wasn't far. In coils she came to understand that and deal with her grief. She hadn't necessarily found why she wanted to protect Eorzea but she now accepted why her grandfather had and was open to looking on Eorzea with unbiased eyes. As for why she quotes her grandfather, it is because she believes a great deal in his wisdom and teaching and uses it as a basis for how she wants to live.

Beyond that she still has a lot of development to go which I expect we will see in SB. I think its highly likely Alisaie will be along for the ride and hopefully will get development much like Alphinaud did in HW. Its not like we are at the end of the story yet. Yugiri hasn't had much development either but she will be probably getting a great deal in SB. Beyond being a kick ass Ninja and the leader of refugees, we really don't know Yugiri well. She is a very reserved character and has never shown a great deal of emotion. It is one of the things I am looking forward to about Othard.